>>20321056>But my point is that it's selfish on both sides.
Good. So there is no argument that suicide is itself, selfish. It is not an intellectual feat to figure out some moral relativism to make it seem less so, but I wanted to get across that it is, in fact, selfish. That's the starting point of the thread, after all.> The story about different people losing their arm
What bearing does this have on someone being selfish in commiting suicide? You try to relate it to what I said about non-recoverable vs able-bodied, but you're talking about two able-bodied people. If someone is not intelligent enough to see that they have options, it doesn't excuse their selfishness.
You seem to want to imply that there is some sliding scale of suffering that could make suicide acceptable (because honestly, you seem to be moving on from the selfish component anyway) and that because it can't be pinned down there is a wiggle room. This isn't the case. It has to do with options, combined with honest effort. This does mean that it varies from person to person, but it doesn't mean that the criteria are flexible or broken.
If someone has no options, no hope for change, suffers from the act of living itself, and can openly communicate their desire to die and have it be understood by others, only then can the selfishness of suicide be mitigated.
If any of those conditions are broken, then the selfishness is there.
Honest effort is the other factor. Because for the person committing suicide, they have to honestly believe they're out of options *and be confident in their knowledge of their situation* to be able to mitigate selfishness. If they go to a doctor they believe to be a good doctor and are misdiagnosed, in a way that leads to suicide - that isn't on the person committing suicide. Scenarios like this are fairly trivial to come up with.
In the end it's very simple, if you have options to turn your situation around and instead commit suicide, you are selfish.