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Emperor's Nightmare #22

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 05:24:14 2011 No.15357637 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>15359969 >>15360104 >>15400281 >>15406589

Hello gals, gents and res/tg/uardians. For those of you returning, welcome back. For the newcomers I present to you the Emperor's Nightmares, a homebrew space marine chapter created by /tg/.

We have our own page up on the 1d4chan wiki which you may find here:
>http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Emperor%27s_Nightmare

For those new to the scene wondering how this all came about, I highly recommend reading through our older discussion threads. Links to the archived pages can be found at the bottom.

I have been plugging away slowly at our homebrew codex. Fleshing out the crunch and formatting each of the unit entries. It is now at a state I would be comfortable describing as a "second draft". To get any further with it we will need the help of playtesters.

The codex can be found here:
>http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nightmare_Tabletop

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 05:27:14 No.15357665 Report

Quoted By:

The Nightmares themselves and their homeworld of Icelus are a towering pile of collected fluff which can be overwhelming to digest. If you have any questions about the chapter or the world they inhabit, feel free to ask.

Shock Thu 23 Jun 2011 06:54:14 No.15358299 Report

Quoted By:

Oh cool, not seen you guys in a while. Hopefully this'll be more active then the rest of the recent /tg/ 40,000 threads.

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 06:57:14 No.15358325 Report

Quoted By: >>15358343 >>15406589

Emperor's Nightmares Primer, TLDR version for those catching up.

> Raven Guard successor chapter.
> Chapter founded around 3000 years before "present day" M41.
> The chapter emblem or "owlglass" combines the elements of bird, hourglass and infinity symbol.
> Marines take great pride in the chapter colours, which are checkered purple and gold.
> Home planet is a wasteland forge world named Icelus
> Marines suffer from an irregular narcoleptic sleep pattern due to a geneseed mutation. Marines stay awake for a month or more before dropping into a coma-like sleep for a similar period.
> The same mutation also gives the marines extremely fast reflexes and sharpens their perception. The effect increases the longer a marine stays awake.
> Chapter is at a nominal (by chapter standards) strength of 1300 marines. This is over the codex approved limit, but accounts for the fact that about a third of all marines are asleep at any one time.
> Chapter adheres mostly to the rules dictated by the Codex Astartes. Making adjustments when needed to account for their unique traits and handicaps.
> The Nightmares do not use Devastator squads. Instead heavy weapon support is given over entirely to dreadnoughts who bear devastator squad markings and deploy in pairs. Acting for all intents and purposes as marines in a devastator squad.
> Marine companies are organized into two battegroups. Primus (or "the Dawn") favours shock and awe tactics combining orbital bombardment and drop pod assaults. Secundus (or "the Dusk) favours stealthy tactics like their predecessors, the Raven Guard.

SUPER AGGRO CRAG !!7x7KzlxQrrH Thu 23 Jun 2011 06:59:14 No.15358332 Report

Quoted By: >>15358386

will they be friends with my marines

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Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 07:00:14 No.15358343 Report

Quoted By:

>>15358325> Marines take great pride in the chapter colours, which are checkered purple and gold.

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Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 07:08:14 No.15358386 Report

Quoted By:

>>15358332
Indeed, the colours are meant to represent the glow of stars among a midnight sky.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 07:16:14 No.15358431 Report

Quoted By: >>15358879

Doom Warriors here, sleepless are just really grumpy instead of homicidal in 40k universe. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Doom_Warriors

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 08:50:14 No.15358879 Report

Quoted By:

>>15358431
>Doom ye! Doom ye! Doom ye!
What kind of battlecry is that? it sounds like something out of Monty Python. I wouldn't put too much stock in a chapter who's identity amounts to a couple paragraphs.

The Catalepsian Node is normally responsible for regulating sleep rhythms and allowing a marine to "combat sleep" by resting half of his brain at once. Obviously this doesn't work for the Nightmares, the mutated node instead provokes a fairly predictable cycle of narcoleptic sleep.

I would posit that the inability to sleep suffered by the Doom Warriors is a permanent form of combat sleep. They do get some form of rest, which is why they don't all go crazy. But they don't actually lay down and sleep.

In any case, the sleeplessness experienced by both chapters have profoundly different effects. One doesn't sleep and grows grumpy for it. The other doesn't sleep, and is driven insane by unimaginable sensory overload.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 08:52:14 No.15358894 Report

Quoted By: >>15358969

Is it just me or does it seem like all the hrorible mutants stay loyalists, while the ones with the most stable genetics turn to chaos

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:08:14 No.15358969 Report

Quoted By:

>>15358894
Y'know... Apart from the cases where mutation is a direct result FROM turning to chaos, that is pretty accurate. Mild mutations are common among astartes. But even the chapters with obvious visible mutations are generally loyal. Until the inquisition comes and purges them (or tries).

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Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:11:14 No.15358985 Report

Quoted By:

>About to go to bed
>Decide to visit /tg/ before going to bed
>Sees this thread

Dangit guys, and I've gotta be going places in the morning!

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:15:14 No.15359007 Report

Quoted By:

I KNEW I HAD A REASON TO TAKE A DAY OFF TODAY!

So, what are the points of address today, brothers?

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:19:14 No.15359028 Report

Quoted By: >>15359043

It would be great if you guys could look over our homebrew codex. Its more or less complete, but still requires playtesting.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:24:14 No.15359043 Report

Quoted By: >>15359064

>>15359028

I am, in fact, planning to do so this weekend.

Knowing my luck however, it won't hold up.

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:30:14 No.15359064 Report

Quoted By: >>15359128

>>15359043
Awesome!

Some of the units in particular like the Avialae Beacon Pods and the Icelus Dreadnoughts don't really have an official equivalent we can compare them to. Its hard to assign an accurate points value to them. That's one thing that can only be figured out through play.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 09:44:14 No.15359128 Report

Quoted By: >>15359242

>>15359064

I agree. Though, it would be useful to .pdf the codex, but I can work with the 1d4chan version. I printed it, so my opponent (Chaos Marines) can look through the rules as well.

I do however find Icelus pattern dreadnaughts to be VERY cheap for their potential unless you take a heavy weapon, in which case they are quite reasonable.

I'll be playtesting the CUT THE CHAIN AND RUN as well as the We need stealth, BRING THE MISSILES lists.

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 10:09:14 No.15359242 Report

Quoted By: >>15359811

>>15359128
I agree. A heavy weapon Icelus loses a lot of its (offensive) melee efficiency. I specifically reduced the cost of all of the heavy weapons for that reason.

Still, it does fill a niche. Plus the idea of an utterly silent ranged attacker is just so terrifying and awesome at the same time.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Icelus_Assault

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:01:14 No.15359811 Report

Quoted By:

>>15359242

I'm one of the people responsible for the colour scheme, I've been around from the original rolls. I know, broseph.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:04:18 No.15359827 Report

Quoted By: >>15359841 >>15359847 >>15359857 >>15359877

>emporer's nightmare

what a shit fucking name. how old are you tg? 12?

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:06:14 No.15359841 Report

Quoted By: >>15359852

>>15359827
No better than Ultramarines.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:07:14 No.15359847 Report

Quoted By:

>>15359827

At least they are actually INTERESTING, unlike the Ultrasmurfs...

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:08:14 No.15359852 Report

Quoted By: >>15359863

>>15359841
well if that is your standard your aiming for, mediocraty ho!

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:09:14 No.15359857 Report

Quoted By:

>>15359827
Really? Have you taken a look at the official chapters?

Blood Angels.
Dark Angels.
Black Templars.
Fucking. Space. Wolves.

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Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:10:14 No.15359863 Report

Quoted By:

>>15359852
>mediocraty

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:13:14 No.15359877 Report

Quoted By: >>15359889

>>15359827

Pretty sure they rolled for it, summerfag.

Anonymous Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:15:14 No.15359889 Report

Quoted By: >>15359969 >>15360104

>>15359877
Actually, I think we just rolled the narcoleptic/sleeping disorder thing and a few other things and then we just ran with the whole concept and BAM, Emperor's Nightmare.

It's totally on the list, though.

Jareddm Thu 23 Jun 2011 12:34:43 No.15359969 Report

Quoted By:

>>15359889
Name was rolled for as well. The fact that it fit the concept as well as it does is a damn miracle of the Emperor.

>>15357637
Nice to see you back Starshadow! The coloring for my EN image will be done this friday. After some arguments with the artist, the image is of an Emperor's Nightmare Nightkin marine (complete with altered pauldron) getting the drop on an Angry Marine.
A second picture featuring a helmetless sleepless marine fighting off a mass of enemies, probably Orks or Dark Eldar, I left that up to the artist.

Jareddm Thu 23 Jun 2011 13:07:14 No.15360104 Report

Quoted By: >>15364470

Jareddm Thu 23 Jun 2011 18:59:14 No.15362527 Report

Quoted By:

Bump

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Merry Nightmare!

WE Thu 23 Jun 2011 20:33:14 No.15363340 Report

Quoted By:

The amount of work that has gone into this is Amazing!

Keep. It. UP.

Tactical Squad

WE Thu 23 Jun 2011 21:40:14 No.15363870 Report

Quoted By: >>15364470

Space Marine Sergeant: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
Space Marine:...............WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

The 'normal' space marine has two attacks. Is this right?

Starshadow Thu 23 Jun 2011 22:58:14 No.15364470 Report

Quoted By:

>>15360104
Sweet, and yeah, postan at midnight. I rarely have typos in my posts, but I have an annoying habit of substituting wrong words or forgetting a word entirely.

>>15363870
Dammit! Corrected. Though in my defense I wasn't the one who wrote the Tactical Marines entry. I only added the periods so that the statblocks would line up and be easier to read. I guess someone got lazy with copypasta.

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WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 00:10:14 No.15365009 Report

Quoted By: >>15366095

>>Dammit! Corrected. Though in my defense I wasn't the one who wrote the Tactical Marines entry. I only added the periods so that the statblocks would line up and be easier to read. I guess someone got lazy with copypasta.

This is a good job already. Finding errata is the least we can do.

So far the only other possible mistakes are the Leadership Characteristic of the 'normal' Space Marine in both the Tactical Squad (Troops) an in the Assault Squad (Fast Attack) is set to 9. Having the same Leadership as the Unit's Sarge is OK for elite stuff (think Sternguard or Vanguard) but, unless I missed something in the rules, this is not the case for the more 'normal' units.

Check the Scout Entry, the Sarge is Ld 9 while the rest of the squad have a Ld 8.

Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 00:34:14 No.15365164 Report

Quoted By: >>15366095

Hey, what happened to the Cardinal that wanted to wreck the Nightmare's shit? Accusing them of being slothful?

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 02:15:14 No.15366095 Report

Quoted By: >>15427587

>>15365009
> Corrected Tactical/Assault marine Ld from 9 to 8
> Also corrected Ironclad attacks from 2 to 2(3)
> btw Techmarine Ld9 is as intended, makes it more practical to take servitors

>>15365164
Hmm. He kind of dropped off the radar. IIRC the chain of events went something like:

> Cardinal in nearby system declares Nightmares to be slothful.
> Big band of redemptionists descend upon Icelus and cause havoc for a while
> Eventually rounded up by marines and PDF, exiled into the wasteland.
> Most re-integrate into society, the remainder became raiders and added to the bandit population.

The story kind of ends there, so far only the beginning and end of that tale have been written. The rest is available for fluffing out.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Demagogue
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Forgiven

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Heck! Give Him an Extra Attack!

WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 02:53:14 No.15366476 Report

Quoted By:

> btw Techmarine Ld9 is as intended, makes it more practical to take servitors

Good call really. Unless taken for a niche prupose (in the BA Codex -> TechM w/Jump Pack & Combi-Melta for cheap DS melta), Techmarines are generally considered at best as a meh choice.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 03:15:14 No.15366694 Report

Quoted By:

Because Nightmare Predators are significantly more durable and the chapter deploys a lot of dreadnoughts as a whole. Techmarines are a very attractive option to keep everything up and running.

I made servitors 10 points each, why the heck did the first cost extra? The old servitors were also very poorly worded and it wasn't clear if they took up an Elite slot. And why would you do that! So that loophole is closed now, servitors don't take up a slot. Plus cheap heavy weapons because of BS3 an T3. The techmarine can take a rhino or razorback if he has servitors with him, makes it a lot easier to keep up with other (possibly Fast) vehicles.

I was also considering giving techmarines the option to take a signum. We don't have devastator sergeants anymore. But I think it would be cool to allow techmarines to take the signum as a servo harness upgrade, "fired" instead of another mounted weapon.

That way you can a free roaming techmarine jump into a tactical squad for a turn or two and give them a BS5 lascannon. Plus you could give him 4 servo arm servitors to instantly repair vehicles, and have a BS5 plasma cannon servitor as the 5th.

That might even be a little overpowered. But hey, thats still better than the unit never being used ever.

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Magi Fri 24 Jun 2011 03:58:14 No.15367092 Report

Quoted By: >>15367146 >>15367696

I dont think this was ever uploaded there.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 04:04:14 No.15367146 Report

Quoted By:

>>15367092
Oh thats right. We only have one picture up so far, the first one. I'll have to look through the older threads, there are a couple other Icelus pics.

Brb uploading hootymcrapeclaws

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WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 05:14:14 No.15367696 Report

Quoted By: >>15367739

>>15367092

Nice. Is there something else that has not been uploaded?

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 05:19:14 No.15367739 Report

Quoted By:

>>15367696
There are several other Icelus pictures not in the gallery yet. Plus a lot of other misc art. Its a simple matter to upload them all to the gallery, it just takes a lot of time.

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WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 06:37:14 No.15368253 Report

Quoted By: >>15368358

>>I was also considering giving techmarines the option to take a signum. We don't have devastator sergeants anymore.

That's the point. No more Devastator Squads.

A common trick is to give the Devs a Rhino so any other unit can take it, be it the scouts, a Sternguard combat squad or (far more common) the Multimelta half of a Tactical Squad. If the TechM in the Vanilla Codex could take a Signum it would be most likely be put to use in said Meltabunker making it a lot more reliable than it already is. So when you add that to the Missile Battery the Devs have in the back things do start to get on the OP side as your shooting is just too good. And that's before we add the repair side of the TechM...

Without Devs we have to look for our heavy duty shooting elsewhere; Personally, a single Plasmacannon is not that scary even with BS5, but, if you put said Tech Squad behind an Auto/Las Predator it is now a dangerous combination as the Pred can disembark units out of their (now wrecked) transports only for the PC servitor to put a deadly template over them.

So, in a nutshell, Signum equipped Techmarines are not game breaking, it actually gives the more options. A good thing in a unit that's always overlooked.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 07:02:14 No.15368358 Report

Quoted By:

>>15368253
Sounds great. Its nice to see such an underused unit get some love. With these changes techmarines become the ultimate support troop. Servitors are an extension of him, ablative wounds and extra hands to fix stuff and carry a gun.

Couple details to work out.

> What would the points cost be?
> Would it be a hand-held or suit mounted weapon ala servo harness guns.
> Should the servo harness be a prerequisite?
> Should we add the option to the Master of the Forge as well?

Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 07:23:14 No.15368451 Report

Quoted By: >>15368504

>Emperor's Nightmare thread
>mybodyisready.jpg

If only I didn't have work tomorrow...keep this thread alive as long as possible, fellow res/tg/uardians, and I shall return.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 07:32:14 No.15368504 Report

Quoted By: >>15368586

>>15368451
Not a problem. Res/tg/uardians tend to wake slowly after all :D

Recently I've had nothing but Codex on the brain, I'll try to start collecting all of the fluff we have and putting on the wiki.

Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 07:50:14 No.15368586 Report

Quoted By: >>15369099

>>15368504
So you're gonna comb the archive for the past threads and collate it all? Good luck, that's a herculean task.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 09:19:14 No.15369099 Report

Quoted By:

>>15368586
Its doubly hard because I can't start at the beginning either. A lot of the facts evolved into their current incarnations.

Hive World Icelus Primer TLDR Version

> Terrestrial planet about 1.3 times the size of Earth with a corresponding increase in gravity.
> Surface was once green and Earthlike long before the Heresy. The oceans have since mysteriously dried up and most of the planet is either arid or salt flat.
> Population of 36 billion, spread among 5 hives.
> Surviving historical records date back to the Heresy, anything older has been purged.
> Icelus is a hive world geared towards the production of weapons and armour.
> Orbited by a titanic wheel shaped space station called the Star of Dreams. A refueling platform and trade nexus.
> Hive Primus is the largest on the planet and the seat of the government.
> Hive Secundus sprawls in the valley between 5 mountains and forms a massive starport.
> Hive Tertius sits atop 3 of the tallest mountains on Icelus, is home to the Psyker school and Astropathic Choir.
> Hive Quartus extends down into a borehole on the southern polar cap. Handles all of the heavy manufacturing.
> Hive Quintus sits atop the flattened peak of the largest mountain on Icelus. A giant agridome that produces food and medicinal plants.
> Inter-hive commerce is handled by massive trains running on underground tracks. And "merchant marine" wheeled land trains.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 10:33:14 No.15369446 Report

Quoted By: >>15370814

For the wiki, what is the procedure for generating a new page? Our main page is currently rather cluttered, a mix of fluff, pictures and Deathwatch stats.

We need to organize it to be more of a greeting page and put all of the errata onto separate pages like the tabletop codex.

Jareddm Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:10:14 No.15370814 Report

Quoted By: >>15370914

>>15369446
I've been trying to find that out nyself to put up some of the stories I've written since.

Also, what exactly does one of the independent land trains consist of? Is it just wheeled vehicles? Is it something that's laying down it's own track in front of it?

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Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:24:14 No.15370914 Report

Quoted By: >>15370932 >>15370995

>>15370814
It's essentially just a train without tracks; there's a vehicle with a powerful engine pulling a train of carriage cars behind it. Technically those tram things at amusement parks and airports are land trains (pic related), so that should give you an idea of the basics---scale it up in grand 40K style, and you've got yourself an Icelus "merchant marine" land train.

Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:26:14 No.15370932 Report

Quoted By:

>>15370914
Maybe track units instead of wheels for some, depending on age/owner/pattern of make?

Jareddm Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:37:14 No.15370995 Report

Quoted By:

>>15370914
Wow, I wasn't thinking of it like that at all, but that makes perfect sense

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Tech HQ?

WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:44:14 No.15371056 Report

Quoted By:

> What would the points cost be?
The Signum was 15 points for the 4th Ed IG Enginseer. It's re-roll was restricted to either the Enginseer OR the servitors so it was rarely taken. We can do without that restriction.

> Would it be a hand-held or suit mounted weapon ala servo harness guns.

It must be Suit mounted.

> Should the servo harness be a prerequisite?

No, flexibility is key to the Techmarine to stand out.

> Should we add the option to the Master of the Forge as well?

This is a call that must be made community-style.

Should there be a Master of the Forge HQ for the Nightmares?

Jareddm Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:50:14 No.15371106 Report

Quoted By:

I think we have enough HQ choices at the moment, no need to push it any further.

SC Guy Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:50:14 No.15371112 Report

Quoted By:

Well hello Nightmares banner, nice to see a friendly face.

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WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 15:58:14 No.15371160 Report

Quoted By: >>15371235 >>15371251

Not the best of references but Land Trains are not new to 40k.

pic: Squat army from Old Epi

Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 16:08:14 No.15371235 Report

Quoted By: >>15371983

>>15371160
PUT THAT AWAY YOU FOOL, DO YOU WANT THEM TO SEE???

Anonymous Fri 24 Jun 2011 16:10:14 No.15371251 Report

Quoted By:

>>15371160

This is my favorite thing.

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WE Fri 24 Jun 2011 17:46:14 No.15371983 Report

Quoted By:

>>15371235

Sorry couldn't resist it...

Now excuse me but I have to RUN

Jareddm Fri 24 Jun 2011 21:49:14 No.15374012 Report

Quoted By: >>15374318

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/Abnormality-cam

Drawing is being colored live.

SC Guy Fri 24 Jun 2011 22:25:14 No.15374318 Report

Quoted By:

Signum-equipped Techmarines is an intrigueing idea, and one which may enhance their role within a section so filled with pretty good choices.

>>15374012

My god. That is brilliant.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 23:06:14 No.15374650 Report

Quoted By:

> Also, what exactly does one of the independent land trains consist of? Is it just wheeled vehicles?
>Maybe track units instead of wheels for some, depending on age/owner/pattern of make?
I'd say a mix of all of them. Wheeled trains are generally the fastest but stick to the better maintained roads. Tracked vehicles have less trouble with terrain. And I think a few were even mentioned to have legs. In order to be called a "Land Train" you need to have a group of boxcars all traveling in a chain. They can be pulled by an engine at the front, or self propelled.

Land Trains vary a lot, the words are an indication of size more than anything else. Anything smaller is simply called a caravan.

--

So sum it up, Techmarines and a Master of the Forge can purchase a suit-mounted Signum for +15pts. The Signum works like a servo-harness mounted weapon, and can be "fired" as one of the two ranged weapons allowed per turn. The Signum affects the techmarine or anyone in his squad and allows them to fire at BS5 for one turn.

Starshadow Fri 24 Jun 2011 23:22:14 No.15374768 Report

Quoted By:

>Should there be a Master of the Forge HQ for the Nightmares?
I say we keep him. Both he and the techmarines can take Prophetic Blueprints which can turn them into Tank Hunters with a lucky roll. The Master of the Forge is also adept at killing walkers. The ability to take dreadnoughts as heavy support is quite handy as well.

Here is an idle thought I had. If a servo-harness is NOT taken. Maybe we could allow the techmarine to take a special weapon ala tactical squads? This way you can take the Signum and have a flamer, melta or plasma gun in hand. Since he can only fire two ranged weapons a turn, having a servo harness too is no help because the flamer and plasma pistol can't be used in the same turn.

This would give the techmarine two useful roles:
- Mr. Fixit, melee support
- Ranged support, spotter, cover booster

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Redundant Systems

WE Sat 25 Jun 2011 02:05:14 No.15376047 Report

Quoted By:

The newer Space Marine variants don't come with a MotF but their Elite Techmarine is modified when compared to the Vanilla version:

Space Wolves TechM can have a Cyberwolvef retinue and a Thunder Wolf Mount(!). Can't take a Servo but the Saga makes up for that.

Blood Angels is the least changed as he can take a Jump Pack (no Bike option...) making for one of those niche uses Techmarines get: TM + JP + CombiMelta = 'Cheap' Deep Strike Melta.

Grey Knights has TONS of options included (but not limited to) access to a Conversion Beamer. Sure, he gets no servitors and he has to walk but that what =I= dudes are for.

Long story short I think that we should skip the MotF HQ but we should really make the Techmarine unique to the Chapter.

How? Just look at the Codex and the answer comes right away: Redundancy. The TechM takes to the field ready to fill whatever gap is in need of a fix: Need an extra hand with a Meltagun? Sure can do! The Predator crew is (literally(!)) asleep at the wheel? Don't worry, it was time to dust of the Conversion Beamer anyway. What an extra Meltabunker*? Yep! I knew these gun servitor will be useful some day!

*Meltabunker = Rhino + Multimelta

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 03:29:14 No.15376756 Report

Quoted By:

Okay did some work on the codex.

> Separated all unique characters and put them in a different category.
> Moved Nightkin from the last spot on the elites list to the third.
> Changed a couple "1 (unique)" to unit specific descriptions. For instance the adjutants are now described as chapter masters and Thueros is a "Living Nightmare".

When seen this way the HQ list doesn't seem as bloated.

Are you sure we can get rid of the MotF entirely? I do like the options he presents. But then it wouldn't be too hard to just fold his abilities into the regular techmarine.

For instance we could make it so that taking a techmarine allows you to take 1 dreadnought as a heavy support and 1 Icelus as a troop choice. This way you don't "lose" an elite slot if you wanted to take a dreadnought.

Fluffwise it wouldn't be too hard to justify elite (and numerous) techmarines. Unlike most recruiting worlds, Icelus is a hive world. That means that a lot of the aspirants will be factory workers with machine aptitude. Some of them are already members of the machine cult. So the step from marine to techmarine is a short one.

Hmm... there are a lot of angles we can work into this.

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WE Sat 25 Jun 2011 04:00:14 No.15377006 Report

Quoted By:

>>Hmm... there are a lot of angles we can work into this.

Yeah, that idea of giving a Heavy Dread is something that I always thought the Vanilla Techmarine should had been given.

People keep saying just that: "I lose one Elite Slot when I take a TechM". One of the many reason people give litte time to the humble Elite TM.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 04:12:14 No.15377095 Report

Quoted By:

I did some digging through the old threads and found some fluff on the techmarines way back in thread #11.

The Nightmares are not one of those chapters who live and breathe machines like the Iron Hands. However they are best bros with the Mechanicus for a variety of reasons. Here is the order of events so far listed in canon:

> The first techmarine becomes Sleepless. His brothers find that keeping him busy allows him to focus on something and keep him relatively sane.
> A while later a Secundus marine named Gavroche is incapacitated and becomes a dreadnought pilot. Gavroche misses sneaking around and asks the armoury to come up with a stealthnought for him.

This is the origins of the Icelus Dreadnough and the event that brought the sleepless techmarines to the attention of the Mechanicus. So our story takes a bit of a detour.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 05:50:14 No.15377839 Report

Quoted By:

The Nightmares have a long history with the Inquisition. Part of that relationship is a huge number of marines who have served in the Deathwatch and brought their experiences back to the chapter. Some of the gadgets the Deathwatch have access too are active camouflage and stummers. Camo is self explaining, stummers are essentially silence generators.

To fit Gavroche's specifications the techmarines of the armoury took a normal dreadnought frame and covered it in camouflage and stummers. Essentially making a quiet dreadnought in a ghillie suit.

The sleepless techmarines went one step further. Recognizing that the Mark 4 dreadnought was not a platform conductive to stealth, they instead turned to the older pre-heresy mark of dreadnought. Taking the base pattern they stripped down the chassis, added sensor quills and lengthened the legs for speed and agility. The Icelus dreadnought was born.

Fast forward a bit again. The Mechanicus learns of the Icelus and requests to see the schematics. The Nightmares decide to gift the completed plans to the Mechanicus who are overjoyed to say the least. The Icelus is created with 100% Imperium approved technology, only mastercrafted to an insane level of detail. Essentially the techmarines had created a whole new STC.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 06:08:14 No.15377975 Report

Quoted By: >>15421107

This is all very disjointed, we will need to properly format the full fluff some time.

In return for the STC plans the Mechanicus grants many gifts to the Nightmares. One of the biggest parts was a slew of dreadnought frames. As well the local Mechanicus on Icelus was tasked with making the chapter new frames. Since they are only one outpost and not a forge world this is a once in a century thing.

Fast forward one more time to present day.

> Nightmares are best bros with Mechanicus
> Chapter has 23 techmarines, all of them artificers because Nightmare marines take care of their own gear.
> Techmarine all very familiar with walkers and dreadnoughts.
> 2 techmarine dreadnoughts take care of the waking dead, or sleepless dreadnoughts.
> Unknown number of sleepless techmarines, very reclusive. Always working on something.
> Chapter armoury is led by Valter Fervesco, Master of the Forge and Holder of the Key.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:22:14 No.15378544 Report

Quoted By:

So adding all of this up, we can pick out a number of things that have bearing on the codex:

1. The Nightmares have a lot of techmarines.
2. I wouldn't call them "better" but at the very least they don't spend all of their time fixing other marine's gear.
3. All techmarines in the chapter are familiar with dreadnoughts and vehicles in general.
4. There is actually more than one Master of the Forge in the chapter. (to take over from each other when they sleep)

So lets see... A Master of the Forge is 70 points more than the basic Techmarine, for the same equipment. This buys you BS5, W2, A2, Ld10 and fills the mandatory HQ requirement. If you discount the cost of the servo-harness, frankly that doesn't seem worth 70 points. How about instead we keep the Master of the Forge as an upgrade? Kind of like how you can upgrade a Dreadnought to Venerable for 60 pts.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:23:14 No.15378557 Report

Quoted By: >>15378679

Accounting for all of the changes discussed above, this is the new Techmarine codex entry:

:50pts
:Techmarine: ..........WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv2+
:Master of the Forge:WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv2+

:'''Unit Composition''': 1 Techmarine
:'''Unit Type''': Infantry
:'''Wargear''': Artificer armour, Servo-arm, Boltgun or bolt pistol, Frag and krak grenades

:'''Options'''
:Upgrade Techmarine to Master of the Forge - +30pts
:Upgrade servo-arm to a servo-harness - +25pts
*Replace boltgun with:
:-a storm bolter - +3pts
:-a combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma - +10pts
:-a flamer: +5pts
:-a meltagun: +10pts
:-a plasma gun - +15pts
*Replace bolt pistol with a plasma pistol - +15pts
*Take either:
:-a power weapon - +15pts
:-a thunder hammer - +30pts
*May take:
:-Meltabombs +5pts
:-Dreamcatcher - +10pts
:-Signs of the Sleepless - +15pts
:-Structural Knowledge - +15pts
:-Prophetic Blueprints - +20pts

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:29:14 No.15378604 Report

Quoted By: >>15378679

:'''Dedicated Transports''': If accompanied by a retinue of servitors, may select a Rhino or Razorback

:'''Special Rules''': And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Blessing of the Omnissiah, Bolster Defences

:'''Prophetic Blueprints''' - Like many in the Chapter, a Techmarine may be visited by nebulous visions of the future. However, even in dreams these scions of the Omnissiah are far more mechanically and practically minded than their fellows, and retain a lot of knowledge on the weaknesses of enemy armour. At the beginning of the game roll a D6 for each enemy vehicle in the game, just as you would for Prophetic Dreams. On the roll of a 1 the Techmarine and any unit he is with will gain the Tank Hunter rule against this vehicle. The Techmarine counts his weapons as Master Crafted when attacking such targets.

:'''Structural Knowledge:''' The Emperor's Nightmare Techmarines know Dreadnoughts and their contemporaries better than anybody outside the Adeptus Mechanicus. A Techmarine will always hit walkers on a 4+ unless he would hit them on less. This includes planting grenades.

See anything obviously incorrect?

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:35:14 No.15378664 Report

Quoted By: >>15378679 >>15383984

Hmm, maybe one Master of the Forge per army? Also here are the adjusted amounts for a conversion beamer. The cost is greater because it is replacing a servo arm, not a servo harness.

*One Techmarine in your army may be upgraded to a Master of the Forge - +30pts
*A Master of the Forge may replace his servo-arm and boltgun with a conversion beamer - +45pts

SC Guy Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:37:14 No.15378679 Report

Quoted By: >>15378713

>>15378604
>>15378557
>>15378664

That seems to work. My only gripe would be that the Structural Knowledge special rule was originally reserved for the Master of the Forge only, but it's not a huge deal.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:41:14 No.15378713 Report

Quoted By: >>15378888

>>15378679
I can easily change it so that the master upgrade comes with structural knowledge (which would make it +45pts). Or so that only a master can purchase that upgrade.

Here is the updated Techmarine entry, with the Master stuff folded into it.

>http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nightmare_Tabletop#Techmarine

SC Guy Sat 25 Jun 2011 08:05:14 No.15378888 Report

Quoted By:

>>15378713

Either way is fine. I'd say more, but I've gotta run.

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 09:26:14 No.15379458 Report

Quoted By:

Alright, I updated the Techmarine entry again.

> Added the Dreadnoughts as Heavy Support rule
This applies to basic Techmarines as well as a Master of the Forge. This way a Techmarine won't "eat up" an elite slot on most army lists.

> Added Icelus Assault rule
For every techmarine or master in your army, you will be able to take one Icelus Dreadnought as a Troops choice and one as an Elite choice.

In the fluff an "Icelus Assault" is the mass deployment of Icelus dreads, possibly 15 all at once. 8th company is particularly notorious for this.

I'm considering adding an entry that would allow you to take an Icelus dread with a heavy gun as a Heavy Support choice. This way, if you take 3 techmarines you can potentially field 12 Icelus dreadnoughts. It might not be a competitive list but it would be wonderfully fluffy.

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Anonymous Sat 25 Jun 2011 17:50:14 No.15382405 Report

Quoted By: >>15384363 >>15384451

bump

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Anonymous Sat 25 Jun 2011 20:38:14 No.15383810 Report

Quoted By:

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WE Sat 25 Jun 2011 20:58:14 No.15383984 Report

Quoted By: >>15384774

Good, this one is now far more like it.

>>15378664

Not too sure about forcing people to upgrade to MotF in order to take a Conversion Beamer. Remember that the GK TechM can take one to replace it's default Servo-Harness.

Jareddm Sat 25 Jun 2011 21:29:14 No.15384363 Report

Quoted By: >>15384451

>>15382405
Ah, thank you for posting the map again. I was looking for the most updated version. We definietely need to get that on to the wiki.

Someone else. !!Qb2aRW+wCPO Sat 25 Jun 2011 21:30:14 No.15384375 Report

Quoted By:

Hey I have a question: are there any normal Codex pieces of wargear for vehicles that the EN can't use?

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Ghost Town?

WE Sat 25 Jun 2011 21:37:14 No.15384451 Report

Quoted By: >>15384774

>>15384363

Now that you mention it...

>>15382405

What's up with that 'Abandoned' Hive Spire?

Starshadow Sat 25 Jun 2011 22:04:14 No.15384774 Report

Quoted By: >>15386444

>>15383984
Are you this wouldn't be a bit overpowered? Originally you could take a maximum of two Masters of the Forge and 2 conversion beamers for a minimum of 280pts. If we make it a techmarine standard item you could take 3 techmarines with 3 beamers for 285 points. I've never seen a beamer being used so I'm not too familiar with the implications.

A conversion beamer is supposed to be a very rare piece of technology. It makes sense for the GKs to have them because they get first pick of resources. But its kind of strange for the EN to have so many that they can use them to arm Joe Techmarine.

>>15384451
That will require a history lesson :P

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WE Sun 26 Jun 2011 00:54:14 No.15386444 Report

Quoted By: >>15387309 >>15388048

>>15384774

Well that's a way to see it.

Then again after seeing the Special Rules again.. It does make even more sense.

Now, Can someone kindly tell about that 'Abandoned" Spire?

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 02:39:14 No.15387309 Report

Quoted By: >>15387778 >>15388308

>>15386444
I'd be happy to. The story we had designed was that when icelus was first colonized there were only two colonies, primus and the currently abandoned one. The two were fiercely independent and eventually a civil war broke out involving some rather heavy ordanance. The abandoned hive is the remains of the hive that lost that war. The nomads will occassionally rummage through the remains, looking for supplies, but some rather large and dangerous pack animals have made the hive there home, keeping any nomads from trying to settle there.

guy who's been here since thread !tsGpSwX8mo Sun 26 Jun 2011 02:43:14 No.15387344 Report

Quoted By: >>15387778

Can't we stop fiddling with the Nightmares? No bullshit new techmarine equipment. ENOUGH CHANGES!

Sorry if it comes off as rude, but people who haven't read the back threads keep on trying to warp them into something different from the idea: sleepy marines who fight even in their dreams and who have awesome fast dreads and sniper rifles in the rank and file

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 02:54:14 No.15387450 Report

Quoted By: >>15387778

Newfag to this project here, but I've been reading up on a few of the threads and the 1d4chan page and I'm not seeing anything on why there are so many dreadnoughts in the Nightmares. I was under the impression dreadnoughts were exceedingly rare in any chapter and the technology behind creating one was difficult to maintain and master.

And why no devastators, for that matter? I know it was rolled up that way back at the beginning, but is there a fluff reason for it?

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 03:28:14 No.15387778 Report

Quoted By: >>15387831 >>15387878

>>15387309
Of course since Icelus is a place dripping with intrigue, that's the OFFICIAL story :D And even then, its only an educated guess.

We had some fluff written up about this, I'll see if I can find it.

>>15387344
Whao dude, its not like we decided to change the colour scheme to blue and gold! We are simply changing the tabletop techmarine rules to make them more versatile and useful. We didn't subtract anything from the rest of the chapter to do this.

We are still building a lot of the fluff from scratch. And in the fluff the Nightmares have a lot of Techmarines. So it makes more sense to see them on the battlefield, and well equipped.

>>15387450
About the dreadnoughts, eeergh.... I can't honestly remember. There were a bunch of reasons we came up with I think. Way back at the founding the Admech gave them some dreads when they equipped the chapter for the first time. They also received one or two as a gift from the Raven Guard. Of course, that doesn't explain why the Nightmares, a relatively young chapter have a whopping 58 of them.

The biggest reason they have so many is that they received a large number of them from the Admech in return for giving them the Icelus dread blueprints. At the same time the chapter itself was manufacturing new ones, one of the tasks given to the Sleepless techmarines.

We still need to codify everything, but rest assured there ARE reasons. We didn't just drop a number onto the org chart like some codex writers I could mention. (43 land raiders?!)

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 03:32:14 No.15387831 Report

Quoted By: >>15388356

>>15387778

Right, right. I just really like the aesthetic behind the Nightmares and I'm surprised something similar hasn't been done before by GW. I'd like to be able to have a Nightmares character in an upcoming DW game, it's just a few things in the fluff don't quite add up.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 03:39:14 No.15387878 Report

Quoted By: >>15388356

>>15387778

Falling asleep in the middle of combat is hard on Marines. Both the existence of more Marines enshrined within dreads, and their greater ability to survive when they go snoozy-time, is obvious within the fluff.

1. IR MARINE
2. Oops, sweepy time
3. IR DREAD
4. Oops, sweepy time... I LIVE!
-or-
4. Lack of sweepy time = unstoppable rape machine.

They have more dreads because their particular circumstance has more likelihood of spawning dreads, and because they find themselves better served by a large force of dreads. What's to question?

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Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 03:57:14 No.15388048 Report

Quoted By: >>15388104 >>15388308

>>15386444
Here is a repost from thread 20

>In the distant past, before the heresy, perhaps even before the dark age of technology, Icelus was jewel of a planet. Vast cities covered its surface among fields of green and blue oceans.

>Today only the barest remnants exist of this civilization. The passage of millennia having wiped the planet clean. Even the most ancient nomad legends speak only of a planet covered in water. Icelus is awash with rumours of archeotech caches deep underground and cities buried in the sand. Some of them are even true. It is these rare discoveries that the archeologists, mechanicus and the inquisition pursue with great vigor.

Icelus was colonized by humans a very very long time ago. They only started to move into hives after the planet became less inhabitable. Primus was the first of these structures. A second hive, the original Hive Secundus was also built in the northern hemisphere.

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Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 04:04:14 No.15388104 Report

Quoted By: >>15388308

>>15388048
For unknown reasons the second hive was almost completely destroyed. The spire shattered and toppled. What little evidence survives of what transpired suggests a civil war. One that involved massive destructive energies far beyond what the Imperium can accomplish with ground forces alone. It is telling that all further hives on the planet were built in the south, putting hive Primus in an excellent defensive position.

Today the sixth spire is a haunted ruin. Expeditions are regularly made to the site and Nomads often forage through the ruins. However the hive is dangerously unstable and home to dangerous creatures.

And that is where the current fluff ends. Its not a topic we delved into much so far. And we agreed early on that it was more fun to keep things vague and mysterious.

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WE Sun 26 Jun 2011 04:22:14 No.15388308 Report

Quoted By:

>>15388104
>>15388048
>>15387309

Thank you everybody. I have yet to finish all the threads so this 'Lost Spire' suddenly took me by surprise.

I was kind of expecting something like that and, yes, I too believe that leaving things vague it's for the best.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 04:28:14 No.15388356 Report

Quoted By: >>15388433 >>15388459

>>15387831
Yeah if you find a hole in the fluff, point it out so we can fill it with something cool.

>>15387878
I think this the best explanation for the great number. When a Nightmare becomes the pilot of a dreadnought his sleep patterns change. The length of time he spends awake increases and the intervals become more predictable.

Heavy weapon support is a crucial part of battlefield tactics. Having it fall asleep on you at a critical moment could prove disastrous. So instead of using devastator squads with 4 marines holding 4 weapons. The nightmares instead deploy dreadnoughts in pairs, counting each as a single "devastator squad".

Since their tactics use dreadnoughts as a cornerstone, it makes sense that they would be constantly producing new ones. The Imperium DOES have the tech to produce new dreadnoughts, and even new suits of terminator armour. They just don't do it without a good reason because they are ridiculously expensive.

The Nightmares live on a planet geared towards the production of weapons and armour. And the sleepless techmarines need something to work on or they will become (more) crazy. So it works out.

Also is this correct?
>The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
> -a combi-melta, -flamer or -plasma: +10pts
> -a storm bolter: +10pts

The entry for Scouts in the codex is the same way. All the only entries in the codex price Storm Bolters at 3 points and combi-weapons at 15 points.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 04:37:14 No.15388433 Report

Quoted By:

>>15388356
Blah, typos. I blame hunger. Be back in a bit.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 04:40:14 No.15388459 Report

Quoted By: >>15389621 >>15389701

>>15388356

Well, there are a few things I'd suggest. First, I'd try and work on the relationship between the Nightmares and the Raven Guard more. They believe in "Honour the Ancestors," but we have very little to go on as far as their feelings on Corax and his chapter. Hell, half the chapter's organized force seems to completely disregard the Primarch's teachings on combat, which were a HUGE part of his origin.

Secondly, I'd go further with the dreamcatchers as the Chapter's totems. Totems are mostly associated with the culture of a chapter's homeworld, so maybe some brainstorming on the cultural significance of the dreamcatcher on Icelus.

Third, I think the Sleepless seem a bit too much like a poor man's Death Company. It just seems like some very different elements are trying to be smashed together here.

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WE Sun 26 Jun 2011 06:15:14 No.15389285 Report

Quoted By: >>15389335

>>Third, I think the Sleepless seem a bit too much like a poor man's Death Company. It just seems like some very different elements are trying to be smashed together here.

Kind of feel the same but I can't figure how to change that...

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 06:22:14 No.15389335 Report

Quoted By: >>15389533

>>15389285

I wouldn't have them stricken from the Chapter as walking dead. I would have their names remembered. A visible sign of what becomes of a Battle-Brother weak in mind and in faith. The Sleepless are a mournful truth, a constant reminder in their ever-open, bloodshot, dilated eyes and half-gibbbered, insane speech what they could one day become.

This would work better, I think, with the soft-spoken, compassionate, almost fay-like nature of many battle brothers. A mournful sort of acceptance, but not a complete severing.

If that makes sense.

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WE Sun 26 Jun 2011 06:50:14 No.15389533 Report

Quoted By: >>15389561

>>15389335

I was referring more to the way they are in the Table Top as they seem to depend a bit too much on the Apothecarie Dreadnoughts to do their Job. But I have yet to test them to really make an opinion.

As for their Fluff it really is mostly a set with only some corners in need of extra detail.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 06:53:14 No.15389561 Report

Quoted By:

>>15389533

Well, I'm no good with crunch. Sorry.

I see. I guess I'm just not the type to dig into a chapter generated fully by the grace of the dice gods. More the type to build something specific in mind and tie it all together.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 07:05:14 No.15389621 Report

Quoted By: >>15389795

>>15388459
The Nightmares and the Ravens are best bros. Thought we haven't detailed a lot of it. When the chapter was founded they gifted many relics to the Nightmares, including 3 sets of terminator armour, a set of artificer chaplain armour, and a Battle Barge. The battle barge was later destroyed and salvaged. By naval tradition renamed the Lucidity. Which is another vaguely written story.

They do venerate the ancestors, Randolphus was a super badass. Both reclaiming a whole sector for the Imperium and finding time on the side to put the smackdown to a daemon prince. The Nightmares venerate him, then Corax, then the Emperor above all.

As for the tactics. Maybe we could explain that Randolphus relied on shock and awe drop pod tactics to win a lot of his battles and the chapter subsequently embraced them. Forming battlegroup Primus to follow his teachings. The rest of the chapter followed the other side of Randolphus's teaching which were the stealthy tactics he used when he was a Raven Guard captain.

This is only one way of explaining it. We specifically rolled shock and awe, see but do not be seen, and pride in the colours. Rather mutually exclusive I must say...

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Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 07:18:14 No.15389701 Report

Quoted By:

>>15388459
Yes the dreamcatchers are very important. We wanted to include as many different cultural influences as we could to make Icelus a diverse place. We have some more fluff about the catchers but you will have to go digging for it.

Early on in one of the threads Technomancer drew an awesome picture of a Nightmare marine. His armour was bedecked in webbing, leather braids, hourglasses and other symbols. We later decided that this is what the chapter chaplains would look like. Basically mystic spirit guides and bird shamans. The North American native influences are plain to see. We are also thinking of doing something similar with librarians.

The different nomad tribes are another good display of different cultures. So far we have:

Witiko Nation: Inuit/Eskimo people, they live in the far north where the ice cap meets the tundra.
Cloud Kingdoms: Medieval Europeans, they live in the tallest of equatorial mountains where the planet is still green.
Nightkin: Fremen basically, live in caves and petrified stone forests.
Beastmasters: An animal herding people who domesticate beasts as transportation, food and protection.
Caravan Traders: Insert desert ethnicity here. Arabic, Bediun, etc. Too many variations to list. They wander the planet and connect the Hive economy to the far flung tribes.
Raiders: Mad max style bandits. Most but not all of them are exiled redemptionists.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 07:37:14 No.15389795 Report

Quoted By: >>15389813

>>15389621

Mutually exclusive indeed.

I mean, I really love this concept we've got going, but I guess the perfectionist in me wants to change things to better mesh.

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 07:41:14 No.15389813 Report

Quoted By: >>15389857

>>15389795
Perhaps it's simply a byproduct of their unusual mutation? It's two approaches that as a whole, the chapter feels they cover all of the tactics that they would need to make them effective. That's why we have seperation between primus and secundus.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 07:50:14 No.15389857 Report

Quoted By:

>>15389813

Maybe. I guess I'd have to try playing a session or two of DW to get a feel for the chapter. I just like having everything tie together neatly. Makes the character and his background more tangible.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 08:12:14 No.15389976 Report

Quoted By: >>15389993

*cracks fluff knuckles*

The entire concept of the Nightmares is a duality. The DAWN represents the day, while the DUSK represents the night. Therefore, if we examine the following concepts...

1. Shock and Awe
2. Pride in the Colours (anagram: Its horrid opulence, lol)
3. See but do not be seen

...we can view them in two ways.

>All of them are applied to the chapter as a whole. They become mutually exclusive and conflict with each other.

OR

>All of them are applied to the Dawn and the Dusk, who then interpret them in different ways.

When you think of these concepts as having dual meanings. They DO mesh together. Examples:

See But Do Not Be Seen:
>Secundus: "If I stay hidden, he can't see me."
>Primus: "If I blind him, he can see NOTHING."

Pride In The Colours:
>Secundus: Camouflage, "Hide in plain sight"
>Primus: Heraldry, "What my enemy can see, he will soon learn to FEAR"

Make sense?

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 08:14:14 No.15389993 Report

Quoted By: >>15390024

>>15389976

Hm. That's a fair point. I guess taking refuge in duality gives each company, and therefore the Marine, it's own flavor. When you look at it almost like two chapters operating as one, it makes sense.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 08:19:14 No.15390024 Report

Quoted By: >>15390150 >>15392117

>>15389993

Building on this, what if you altered aspects of crunch to represent Marines from Primus or Secundus? Different demeanor and combat doctrine? I think all the squad and solo mode abilities are pretty universal for the chapter. Same with the advance table.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 08:43:14 No.15390150 Report

Quoted By:

The two sides of Shock and Awe are a little harder to describe. But it basically amounts to:

Primus: Buttrape that you can see coming
Secundus: Buttrape that you can't see coming

>>15390024
I think the Deathwatch stats are good as they are. Interrogate, Intimidate and Lightning Reflexes can apply equally to a marine from either battlegroup.

Its amazing how well they fit too. Nightmares are great interrogators because they can notice even the smallest reactions and its hard to hide anything from them.

Intimidate makes sense too. Thanks to Corax's genetic legacy, each marine's skin will grow pale and his hair darken over time. No matter what they were originally, a marine centuries old will invariably have ghostly white skin and coal black hair. On top of this I think it was written somewhere that their eyes ALSO darken into fully black orbs. Scary.

guy who's been here since thread !tsGpSwX8mo Sun 26 Jun 2011 13:31:14 No.15391855 Report

Quoted By: >>15392117 >>15394190

>>We are still building a lot of the fluff from scratch.

No. Just no. Go back and read the archives before submitting suggestions. We have plenty. These are the Emperor's Nightmare(s), not the Ice Serpents and it's better if we keep it that way.

Hell, we even have a fairly comprehensive list of battles.

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 14:05:14 No.15392064 Report

Quoted By: >>15396080

>And in the fluff the Nightmares have a lot of Techmarines
It's important to remember two things. First, this includes sleepless techmarines because they're not technically listed as sleepless (Admech likes to keep their dirty little secret low key). Sleepless techmarines are the least likely to be sent into battle due to the fact they've got far more important projects going on. Second, most other chapters don't have manufacturing capabilities like the Nightmares have with Dreadnoughts, so the number of techmarines that go out onto the battlefield is probably a good deal less than the value listed.

>The length of time he spends awake increases and the intervals become more predictable.
Wouldn't it be the time spent asleep increases? Considering even normal dreadnoughts rest for decades if not centuries? Or do you mean once they're awake, it's less likely they'll fall asleep?

>Totems are mostly associated with the culture of a chapter's homeworld
The thing is, not every belief of a chapter is tied to the culture of the homeworld. Remember, despite having a good relationship with the local authorities, the Nightmares beliefs are their own. It's unlikely that the people of Icelus view the Emperor as a glowing light of energy visible in their dreams. The dreamcatchers in particular are designed to keep a marine's body from being possessed by a creature of the warp while they sleep and fight in the dreamscapes. This isn't exactly something the people of Icelus need to worry about.

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 14:13:14 No.15392117 Report

Quoted By:

>>15390024
In a way, this is built into the choice of specialty. A Nightmare assault marine will always be from Primus for example. Techmarines, Librarians and Apothecaries exist outside of the battlegroup structure. We don't have Devastators, and tactical marines can build their battlegroup through skill and talent selection as appropriate.

>>15391855
Relax. Starshadow's always been an endless fountain of ideas and creativity. Just take each idea as they come and show evidence that something won't fit when an idea isn't good. And like you said, we have a tremendous amount of material already. Unless it's an obvious gap being filled, showing that something won't fit shouldn't be too hard.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 18:23:14 No.15393975 Report

Quoted By: >>15394549

>Wouldn't it be the time spent asleep increases?
Er, yes that's what I meant. A normal space marine dreadnought tends to slumber for decades or even centuries before being woken to fight in a campaign or two. When a Nightmare becomes a dreadnought his old sleep patterns still have an effect. Effectively his sleep cycle lengthens. He spends more time awake than he used to, but also sleeps for a similar period. This makes dreadnoughts more reliable on the battlefield because they are much less likely to fall asleep than another marine. However, exactly when they fall asleep is also less predictable.

This is another way we could differentiate Nightmare dreadnoughts and help explain why they have so many of them on active duty. Instead of sleeping for decades like other dreadnoughts, they would sleep for about 6 months to a year, then stay awake for a similar period. Allowing for scheduled deployments.

>The thing is, not every belief of a chapter is tied to the culture of the homeworld.
In fact it would be accurate to say that a lot of Icelian cultural beliefs come from the Nightmares instead! The purple and gold heraldry is a good example.

When an aspirant becomes a marine, he leaves a lot of beliefs behind in the process. But the various cultures of Icelus are still represented in some form when it comes to individual marines. Simply because the marines come from those cultures.

One of the major things we will need to work out is where exactly the whole dreamcatcher thing originated. Its purpose is a protective talisman against the demonic. And a symbolic memory aid to help a marine decipher his dreams. Its probable that some form of cultural influence was involved. Otherwise the talisman could have taken the form of a teddy bear for all we know.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 18:49:14 No.15394190 Report

Quoted By:

>>15391855
Hey relax. Were not trying to reinvent anything this late in the game. Its just that the fluff has huge holes in it that we need to fill. This is what I meant by starting from scratch.

I'm pretty sure I never participated until thread #9. But I did watch things unfold from the beginning. If I can't remember if we did something already it was probably not notable enough. Or at least, notable enough not to benefit from a little upgrading. ;)

Here is a fun story from thread #9:

Inquisitor Armoring frowned and tapped his dataslate. He requested a Space Marine, and he was given...this? His Magos was tending to (but mostly poking at) a gently snoring suit of 'corvus' power armour, painted in the yellow and purple. He received this marine five days ago, and he hadn't even...woken up? yet. He wasn't sure that this was even a real space marine. Some trick by his ri-
"Greetings, Inquisitor Armoring. Magos Risze."
The Inquisitor and the Magos jumped around to look at the space marine standing in the corner.
"I have not given you my name," The Inquisitor stated. The Magos hadn't either, but one thing at a time...
"The dataslate you are holding contains the shipping records to and from the planet Carthaginus III. The ring on your left middle finger is most likely a digital laser; only the most wealthy or an Inquisitor can afford such...extravagance." The marine's tone was clipped and short, amplified by the vox-speaker. There was silence for one, two, three seconds before the Inquisitor spoke up again. "...and my name? And his name?" He waved to the Magos. How could one space marine learn so much in...the thirty seconds he has been conscious? He knew of the legendary abilities of the Space Marines, but this was insane.
The Space Marine turned and nodded his thanks to the Magos, picking his boltgun up from the table beside the reinforced cot. "I did some research."

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace DreamKey.jpg, 394KiB, 1144x1600

Sound like a QUEST

WE Sun 26 Jun 2011 19:12:14 No.15394361 Report

Quoted By: >>15394491

>>Otherwise the talisman could have taken the form of a teddy bear for all we know.

LOL at the original thread reference. Anyway, Wasn't the Dreamcatcher a joint work between the Chapter's Librarians and the Scholastica Psykana?

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 19:29:14 No.15394491 Report

Quoted By:

>>15394361
Correct, the scholastica psykana helped the chapter's efforts to prevent demonic posession while asleep, which was the primary argument of the inquisitorial investigation sent against the nightmares. The project, led by librarian Tibalt (pre-dreadnought) managed to develop a psychic protection for the dreamers in the form of the dreamcatchers. However, it was Iassac of Tertius, the chapter's first chaplain, who preached of the importance of the dreamcatcher as a personal totem and focus for meditation for all nightmares, not just those at high risk of warp posession.

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 19:39:14 No.15394549 Report

Quoted By:

>>15393975
I don't think think we need to tie the dreamcatcher shape to anything. It's simply the most effective shape to do it's job from a psychic perspective. The wire is most likely some special material that allows it to enter a marine's dreams with him, the various items on it are all of personal importance to the marine, creating a strong bond of protection, the overall shape allows an even distribution of protection, keeping even minor warp entities from sneaking into the material world through the dreamscape.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 22:09:14 No.15395575 Report

Quoted By: >>15395755 >>15396079 >>15396113 >>15396225

I think we should cut out the "dreadnaughts=STC" and "super speshul" part. They're a variation, and a rather clever and unique one, but their core design nothing that won't be seen, however rarely, in the vaults of the First Founding and Second Founding Chapters as pre-Heresy mark dreadnought armour.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 22:36:14 No.15395755 Report

Quoted By: >>15396225

>>15395575

dude speaks with relevance

Who else thinks we should tone down the Icelus pattern Dreadnought a bit?

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 22:38:14 No.15395775 Report

Quoted By: >>15396079 >>15396113

The stealthy "fuckmurdereverything" dreads with spines are one of the neatest ideas for the Nightmares, and they're great as they are. It's their origin and history that needs a bit, just a bit, of tweaking.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace MY_HAT!!.jpg, 65KiB, 1270x715

The Hats

WE Sun 26 Jun 2011 23:25:14 No.15396079 Report

Quoted By: >>15396225

>>15395575
>>15395775

I too think that the STC part goes overboard. Actually, by removing just that most of that "super speshul" thing goes away. Remember, the Icelus is a Master-Crafted Heresy-Era Dreadnought. Even if other Chapters/AdMech were given the EXACT blueprints* they would be hard pressed to use them as making them is insanely difficult.

*Even if another chapter were to somehow 'acquire' a frame or two(!!) it would be difficult from them to field them as, if they were to suffer damage, repair will be really hard to fix.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 23:25:14 No.15396080 Report

Quoted By: >>15396185

>>15392064
The thing is, sleepless techmarines are not the Admech's secret to keep. It think its fine for the Nightmares to have so many techmarines. A third of them will be asleep at any one time, so the effective number is less. Secondly, SOMEONE has to take care of all these dreadnoughts. And the sleepless techs could not handle those duties alone because they stay in Betten Burgen.

Icelus is very industrialized. Other chapters recruit feral warriors with no knowledge of technology and get lucky if they find one with the right aptitude. But on Icelus, some of the aspirants will already be devotees of the machine god, the sons of factory workers and techpriests. For these recruits the step from aspirant to techmarine is a short one.

Also, sleepless techmarines should remain off the list, just like the other sleepless. They are certainly not fit to serve, so having them on the list just confuses things.

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 23:31:14 No.15396113 Report

Quoted By:

>>15395575
>>15395575
>>15395775
If other space marine equipment didn't come from STC's, I'd be all for it. But as the razorback and various land raider variants have shown, that's where the space marines get their new designs, and dreadnought marks are no exception.
HOWEVER, if we do decide to not make the icelus dread from an STC (which I'm pretty sure is what we're doing anyway), it's important to remember that the precision skill of the sleepless techmarine is necessary for its creation. This is why the pattern hasn't been spread to other chapters as quickly as possible, they simply don't have the dangerously unnatural skills that the Nightmares techmarines have. In fact, this is one of the personal projects of Valter Fervesco, the Master of the Forge is working on. He's trying to 'package' the immense perceptive skill of himself and his sleepless techmarines into a form that would be usable by others. However, this requires using other sleepless to experiment on, something Eidelan is strongly opposed to doing.

Jareddm Sun 26 Jun 2011 23:41:14 No.15396185 Report

Quoted By: >>15396356 >>15396463

>>15396080
It's not the AM's secret, it's The Master of the Forges secret. Of course the other members of the wake know about the sleepless techmarines, it's just a matter of how many of the listed ones are sleepless, which if they side with Fervesco, they're going to be hiding the fact that they're sleepless among those who are not.
The list includes all of the chapter's techmarines, whether they're assigned to battles or remain on Icelus building dreads and conducting research.
You don't need a techmarine to maintain dreadnoughts, there are other menials and AM priests who can go the routine maintenance and repair. Sure you might have 2 or three techmarines checking up on things, but they're not assigned to dreads.

Starshadow Sun 26 Jun 2011 23:46:14 No.15396225 Report

Quoted By: >>15396500 >>15396606 >>15396862 >>15397075

>>15396079
>>15395755
>>15395575
I understand where these concerns are coming from. But we spent a LOT of time creating the Icelus in its current incarnation. We had to try very hard not to include things just because they were cool, and I think we achieved a good balance. I'll have to dig through the old threads and codify all the Icelus fluff. Because apart from combing the old threads its rather hard to find.

Couple of issues I can answer:
> The Icelus dreads are only based on pre-heresy designs and are almost completely redesigned.
> When the Nightmares offered the plans to the Mechanicus as a gift, they also made them available to any other chapter who wanted them.
> The Icelus is an STC in the sense that it is based completely off of Imperium approved technology. It is NOT an "archeotech" pattern from an earlier age like the Land Raider. We could just as simply call them "plans".
> The Nightmares are not the only organization with the resources to create an Icelus. Sleepless techmarines are not required, they just speed up the process to the point that mass deployment is practical.

There is a delightful story of the Inquisition kidnapping a sleepless deathwatch librarian and putting him into an Icelus dreadnought frame. It... didn't end well for them.

Anonymous Sun 26 Jun 2011 23:58:14 No.15396339 Report

Quoted By:

Chalk this one up to bad wording, then, and emphasize the fact that it's canon compliant. We don't want the Nightmares to be Blood Angels with HURR DURR SPESHUL TECH THAT WE HOARD.

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:00:14 No.15396356 Report

Quoted By: >>15396383 >>15396674

>>15396185
That kind of contradicts the earlier fluff. But I can see where you are going with this. How about this:

> Sleepless techmarines have existed since the very beginning of the chapter. It only took a couple hundred years for the first one to appear among the ranks.

> One of the responsibilities shared by the entire chapter is finding ways to distract the Sleepless and ease their suffering. For most marines these can take the form of games, or sleigh of hand.

> When a Techmarine becomes sleepless he lingers on in active duty until the apothecarion considers him unfit. He will then spend the rest of his life deep in the chapter armoury, maintaining and crafting new equipment. Quietly passing away after centuries of obsessive artifice.

This is where Valter steps in. Unlike his predecessors who considered the sleepless to be tragically lost to the rest of the chapter. Valter believes that the sleepless are but closer to perfection. He almost encourages the other techmarines to embrace sleeplessness, a view that runs completely opposite to Eidelan.

Valter himself is a Sleepless. A fact that he carefully hides from the rest of the Wake. Going so far as to give his second in command a fail-safe if he ever goes off the deep end.

So among the chapter there are 23 active techmarines and an unknown number of sleepless techmarines who's number is *classified*. Some of the 23 are actually sleepless, hiding their condition from the rest of the chapter.

Someone else. !!Qb2aRW+wCPO Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:02:14 No.15396383 Report

Quoted By: >>15396494 >>15396500 >>15396684

>>15396356
I kind of like it, but if there were obsessively perfectionist Techmarines who never slept, wouldn't they be able to make more Terminator suits for the rest of the chapter?

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:10:14 No.15396463 Report

Quoted By: >>15396483

>>15396185
>You don't need a techmarine to maintain dreadnoughts, there are other menials and AM priests who can go the routine maintenance and repair.
Yeah pretty much, replacing armour plates or reloading an assault cannon isn't a hugely complex job. What DOES need a techmarines attention is a severed arm or other instance of catastrophic damage.

Icelus dreadnoughts are an exception because their systems are super complex. They need constant attention to keep their stealth intact, unlike normal dreads which are far more rugged.

So lets see... assuming 23 active techmarines.
> 6 companies off on campaign, 3 techmarines each, 1 sleeps
> 2 companies at home to garrison. 5 techmarines + sleepless techmarines to maintain armoury.
> Various servitors and chapter serfs divided among everything.

Do you guys think it would be out of place to have some of the chapter serfs as fully trained techpriests? The Mechanicus has existed on Icelus long before the Nightmares arrived, and they have been friendly neighbors ever since...

It would help explain how they keep 58+24 dreadnoughts up and running. Without simply saying "assload of techmarines".

Someone else. !!Qb2aRW+wCPO Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:12:14 No.15396483 Report

Quoted By: >>15396530

>>15396463
If we're going to use the serfs, don't make them full Techs, make them Mechanicum Lay Brothers or Enginseers. Astartes don't usually have both, according to the Cain series anyway.

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:13:14 No.15396494 Report

Quoted By: >>15396516

>>15396383
I'm sure they could make one. They certainly have the manpower. But there is that one little problem of each suit requiring a fragment of the Emperor's armour though.

Current fluff states that they started with 50 suits. Over the centuries 4 of those suits have been lost or destroyed in extreme circumstances. A fifth was stolen.

So I'd be comfortable stating that they can't make new ones, but the ones they do have are kept in pristine shape.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace mameshiba_(artist).jpg, 171KiB, 750x1000

WE Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:14:14 No.15396500 Report

Quoted By:

>>15396383

Terminator Armor is kind of Hard to make and the Sleepless TM are more 'encouraged' to do Icelus dreads and actually maintaining all the other dreads.

>>15396225

Ah.. OK, got it.

Someone else. !!Qb2aRW+wCPO Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:16:14 No.15396516 Report

Quoted By: >>15396565

>>15396494
Not each suit needs a chunk of the Emperor's armor, just Terminator Captains who have been awarded the Crux Argentum.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crux_Terminatus

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:17:14 No.15396530 Report

Quoted By: >>15396557

>>15396483
Err, is there a difference? I've heard the words "Techpriest Enginseer" mentioned in sequence many times.

In any case, you're right. They would still be chapter serfs. So they wouldn't be "techpriests" as in "priests of the machine god". They would be more or less non-astartes techmarines. Beholden to the Omnissiah and the Emperor, but loyal to the chapter first and foremost.

Though I can't think of a good term to describe them. "techserfs?". Better than lay-brother at any rate.

Someone else. !!Qb2aRW+wCPO Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:21:14 No.15396557 Report

Quoted By:

>>15396530
Well, a Techpriest is a person who is a sanctioned practitioner of the Machine God, and all enginseers are Techpriests, but not all techpriests are enginseers. Enginseers tend to get their hands dirty with the Guard and so forth.

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:22:14 No.15396565 Report

Quoted By: >>15396586

>>15396516
I'm pretty sure ALL suits of Terminator armour have the Emperor's armour in them. The Crux Terminatus is just a symbol. The Crux mounted on the shoulder of terminator armour is where the piece of the Emperor's armour resides.

The piece is probably microscopic. But still a rather limited resource.

Brb mowing lawn.

Someone else. !!Qb2aRW+wCPO Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:24:14 No.15396586 Report

Quoted By: >>15405933

>>15396565
It's just Captains that have the piece of the Emperor's armor, according to the three sources that article listed.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:26:14 No.15396606 Report

Quoted By:

>>15396225
Indeed. We've been over this enough times. It's a good balance. One of the cornerstones we should stop messing with (although we can still elaborate of course). If the slight misuse of the word 'STC' is a bee in some peoples' bonnet, lets just say "plans" and move on. Whatever.

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:34:14 No.15396674 Report

Quoted By: >>15400010

>>15396356
What fluff does it contradict? Fervesco's always been working with the full sanctions and encouragement of the AM
>until the apothecarion considers him unfit. He will then spend the rest of his life deep in the chapter armoury, maintaining and crafting new equipment.
This makes no sense. Techmarines can snap just like any other sleepless and go on rampages. Fervesco and the AM is willing to take that risk, Eidelan and probably a significant portion of The Wake is not. The fact that they can lose themselves into their work only hides the symptoms of sleeplessness. Sure it works for an extremely long time to the point that a techmarine is more likely to die from a work-related incident than being found out by an apothecary, but if they're discovered as sleepless by the apothecaries, they'll be pulled off the line and put with the other sleepless, under Eidelan's orders.

>So among the chapter there are 23 active techmarines and an unknown number of sleepless techmarines who's number is *classified*. Some of the 23 are actually sleepless, hiding their condition from the rest of the chapter.
and I'm saying that the ones listed under classified are no different from any other sleepless, and would be grouped together as such.

>Do you guys think it would be out of place to have some of the chapter serfs as fully trained techpriests?
Yes. There's an AM presence on Icelus, and they work together, but they're not buddies, not like the Nightmares and the Scholastica Psykana, who we could make as the chapter serfs.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 00:35:14 No.15396684 Report

Quoted By:

>>15396383
The facilities for making terminator armour are radically different than those for fabricating dreadnought hulls.

If the Nightmares had spend several hundred years building completely different manufacturing infrastructure then yeah they'd be able to build terminator armour instead of dread chassis. Maybe.

We very much made it "one not the other" to avoid too much special snowflake syndrome.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 01:02:14 No.15396862 Report

Quoted By:

>>15396225
I have deleted the words "the STC" from the sentence in question on the Icelus dreadnought wiki.

Hopefully this will avert any further repetition of this topic of misunderstanding.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 01:28:14 No.15397075 Report

Quoted By: >>15398353 >>15399135 >>15400043

>>15396225
Oh man... Now there's an Ascension mission. so much danger and intrigue all at once:

>Adepts [REDACTED] and [REDACTED], an extremely dangerous [REDACTED] psyker of the [REDACTED] has escaped his Alpha-Level threat confinement at our research station on [REDACTED]. You must immediately isolate, disable, contain and if possible recover the [REDACTED] before its pilot can build an emergency warp beacon to capable of summoning [REDACTED] to our facilities. Time is therefore of the utmost importance. May the Emperor's grace be with you.

1. Hunt down a sleepless stealth dreadnought that just butchered its way out of your research labs between security camera sweeps
2. Trap it in a way that its psychic powers, astounding perception and ghost like stealth will not allow it to escape from
3. Prevent it from building a serviceable warp beacon to summon the Nightmares who will then discover your highly controversial
4. If captured above all costs agree with the maddened sleepless that you are indeed dark eldar. The risk of your life is a fair price to protect the truth. Do not fail in your duty, adepts.

Good luck.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 03:52:14 No.15398353 Report

Quoted By:

>>15397075

That's some mission right there. Bonus points if, because some paperwork mistake, an actual Nightmare is part of the Team.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 05:23:14 No.15398927 Report

Quoted By:

bump

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace biiiite~.jpg, 437KiB, 1115x1100

WE Mon 27 Jun 2011 05:55:14 No.15399135 Report

Quoted By:

>>15397075

Deathwatch Mission?

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 08:39:14 No.15400010 Report

Quoted By: >>15400043 >>15401882

>>15396674
Hmm, I was under the impression that Sleepless Techmarines were more stable than most. Sleeplessness is a form of sensory overload, being able to concentrate on a single task is calming because your mind can focus instead of being overwhelmed by all the incoming information.

This is why the Sleepless in the fluff we have written so far tend to do things like count objects. Stars passing a porthole for instance. Or maybe games that require memory and observation. The armour of a sleepless is generally decorated with carvings of staggering perfection and complexity. These things have a calming effect on them akin to putting on earmuffs during a rock concert.

The way I saw the sleepless techmarines is that they use machines as a crutch to deal with the effects sleeplessness. Fixing or creating things is a task that requires immense concentration. Even more so when you are a perfectionist who can spot the slightest perfection. Hence sleepless techmarines are not rounded up and put into "mobs" like a death company. Instead they simply become reclusive hermits, allowed to "retire" to the armoury where they spend all of their time creating things.

They are just as crazy and affected as all of the other sleepless. But when you consider the inability to sleep to be something that brings you closer to your god. You tend to have a different perspective on the situation.

Anyhow, last bump for the night.

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 08:49:14 No.15400043 Report

Quoted By:

>>15400010
Sleep before you post kids! Your grammar will thank you.

>>15397075
Very nice. I especially enjoy the part about there possibly being a Nightmare on the team. It would slowly dawn on him just what is going on, and who is responsible. Talk about conflicted loyalties.

Intrigue, intrigue everywhere!

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 09:45:14 No.15400281 Report

Quoted By: >>15401459

>>15357637
15389976
See But Do Not Be Seen:
>Secundus: "If I stay hidden, he can't see me."
>Primus: "If I blind him, he can see NOTHING."

Pride In The Colours:
>Secundus: Camouflage, "Hide in plain sight"
>Primus: Heraldry, "What my enemy can see, he will soon learn to FEAR"

while the enemy is distracted by primus, secundus sneaks up on them. it is actually ingenious.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 2745386.jpg, 37KiB, 640x426

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 09:52:14 No.15400315 Report

Quoted By: >>15401882 >>15402044

what happen to sleepless chaplains?

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 13:23:14 No.15401459 Report

Quoted By:

>>15400281
WAAAAGGH with Kommandos, Emperor's Nightmares, Final Destination.

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 15:06:14 No.15401882 Report

Quoted By: >>15401923

>>15400315
Oh they're there. But they're rounded up and put into the Sleepless companies like all the rest. In fact, there was a Brother Damien who was a sleepless chaplain and was the first to spot the Alpha Legion infiltrators among the EN's ranks.

>>15400010
But if they're simply allowed to continue their work, than why try to hide the fact that they're sleepless? My idea is that Eidelan believes strongly that given enough time, even a techmarine will lose too much of himself, that foci and distractions can only do so much. That's why he would want to pull any sleepless off the line, especially a techmarine, because when they do start to show symptoms, it will be far worse than if another marine, who had just been diagnosed as sleepless.

Allow me to explain with a personal story. My grandmother was one of the first female accountants in New York City. She was an absolutely brilliant woman and always kept her mind active. She would read, do a crossword puzzle and a sudoku every day, take cross country trips. Then suddenly, almost out of nowhere, stage 6 Alzheimer's. She had had it for many years, but because she kept her mind so active, none of the early symptoms manifested. That didn't mean the condition didn't worsen in the background. So by the time symptoms were manifesting, they were magnitudes stronger than if she hadn't kept herself active and her mind busy. We were of course completely unprepared for this and had no idea how to handle it. Had symptoms started to develop earlier and it had been found earlier, we could've managed.
This is what I feel Eidelan feels. That hiding symptoms only makes things worse in the long run, and that the sooner it can be found, the sooner real treatments can be looked into.

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 15:12:14 No.15401923 Report

Quoted By:

>>15401882
Of course Fervesco and probably a number of the techmarines under him completely disagree with this statement. They feel as you said, that it brings them closer to the Omnissiah. But the Chief Apothecary tends to have a good deal of pull with the rest of the chapter and it raises a nontrivial question. Who do you believe? The Doctor or the Scientist? Especially when they're giving contradictory advice.

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Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 15:36:14 No.15402044 Report

Quoted By: >>15402191

>>15400315
ok, but are they still chaplains? do they have some special abilities because they were chaplains? and were can i find the story of Brother Damien?

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 15:54:14 No.15402191 Report

Quoted By:

>>15402044
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14973678/#14992333
It starts here.

And no, they aren't still considered chaplains. The Sleepless are stripped of their rank and specialties when they're classified as sleepless and the rites of the sleepless are performed. That doesn't mean they don't still have the skills that they developed and honed in the years prior to becoming a sleepless.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Time_in_a_Dream.jpg, 317KiB, 1000x1000

WE Mon 27 Jun 2011 20:10:14 No.15404282 Report

Quoted By:

>>Who do you believe? The Doctor or the Scientist? Especially when they're giving contradictory advice.

Yet this is really another strength of the Chapter. There are many sub-plots going and this really draws people in.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 20:40:14 No.15404511 Report

Quoted By:

I was thinking recently that we should have a group of Nightmares who fell to Chaos. Not just renegades or crazies like Thureos, I mean full on worshipers. Every Chapter has a few fallen marines except for the Grey Knights. We need some shameful failures. I like the idea of a few who despised their node degradation so much, and hated its effects that they made a pact with Slaanesh so that they would feel enjoyment from the painful observations and sensations. Of course, as time goes by, they need to sleep less and less to keep the rush and high.

This goes against the old canon of 'All Sleepless are loyal as fuck.' But we can justify this as these guys are pretty old and no one even knows these marines are alive and sleepless. They're just an old cautionary tale thought to have been killed a thousand years past.

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 20:52:14 No.15404613 Report

Quoted By: >>15404636

>All Sleepless are loyal as fuck.
I don't think this is the case. It's not that they're super loyal, it's that they lose the ability to differentiate friend from foe, or even foe from empty space. Of course there's Theuros and all the scary insanity that comes with him, but I think you're referring more to those who refuse to accept node degeneration and look for ulterior treatments.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 20:54:14 No.15404636 Report

Quoted By:

>>15404613
No, the concept was that the Sleepless stay loyal to the Emperor. They venerate him above all else. However their insanity causes them to think everyone else besides their fellow Sleepless might be traitors or heretics when their minds aren't clear.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus.png, 150KiB, 1076x1078

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 21:15:14 No.15404803 Report

Quoted By: >>15405157

Trying to standardize the Icelus frame a bit. Here it is without the mechadendrites (since that's the visual detail I like the least). Obviously the basic frame can me embellished however you'd like.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace IcelusComparison.png, 559KiB, 1117x611

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 21:29:14 No.15404902 Report

Quoted By: >>15405157 >>15405404

And here it is compared to a standard Mk IV Dreadnought.

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 21:58:14 No.15405157 Report

Quoted By: >>15405237

>>15404902
>>15404803

Very cool! Thanks for taking the time to draw the Icelus.
I do have one critique. I think the arms are just a tad bit too long. Yes I'd expect them to be longer than the normal dreads, but these are almost twice as long.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus.png, 206KiB, 1042x1042

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:09:14 No.15405237 Report

Quoted By: >>15405283 >>15405404 >>15418794

>>15405157
Yeah, I realized that after I posted. How's this look?

(I cannot make the mechadendrites look good)

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:15:14 No.15405283 Report

Quoted By:

>>15405237
That looks much better.
Don't worry about the mechadendrites. I'm not a huge fan of them either. I like what they can do mechanically, but in terms of aesthetics, I can take or leave them.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Xardion.jpg, 119KiB, 316x439

WE Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:32:14 No.15405372 Report

Quoted By: >>15405400 >>15405406

>>mechadendrites

Do you mean the 'silence generators'? I pictured them more as some sort of long, shaped antennae.

pic related, look at the head, something like that but longer and around the shoulders.

ComfyCushion Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:38:14 No.15405400 Report

Quoted By: >>15405595

>>15405372
THe spines aren't the stummers, they're sensory antennae. Let's just assume the spines are in a retracted position in the orthographic,\.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:39:14 No.15405404 Report

Quoted By: >>15405433

>>15405237
>>15404902
Arms are too wide. Needs more of a Potato-look to the body, and the sensor spines. Still nice work though.

Kamaluq Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:40:14 No.15405406 Report

Quoted By: >>15405595

>>15405372
>Silence devices.

You mean stummers. No those are integrated, you wouldn't really want them in places where they could be damaged. The optical mechadendrites are there to give the Icelus broader sensory input of his surroundings.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:43:14 No.15405428 Report

Quoted By: >>15405595

I'd suggest using the horus heresy artbook dreadnoughts as a basis for sketches. Those are the basic chassis, not the modern variants, after all...

Potato-body, potato-body everywhere. Much more human-shaped than modern styles.

ComfyCushion Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:44:14 No.15405433 Report

Quoted By: >>15405472 >>15405552 >>15405595

>>15405404
The arms are set just as wide as they are on a regular dreadnought. And why would a sleek, stealthy, lightweight machine have a potato-shaped body?

Kamaluq Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:48:14 No.15405472 Report

Quoted By: >>15405485

>>15405433

Do an image search for "Pre-Herey Dreadnaught", which is what the Icelus is a modification of. They were pretty potato-ish, rather than the blocky EVEN IN DEATH I SURF chaps of today..

ComfyCushion Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:50:14 No.15405485 Report

Quoted By: >>15405568

>>15405472
Yeah, but the Icelus is a more stripped-down, lightweight version of that. I'll work on getting a more pre-heresy feel to the design, but it is definitely not going to be potato-shaped.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Pre_Heresy_Dreadnought.jpg, 160KiB, 600x600

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:58:14 No.15405537 Report

Quoted By: >>15405568

pre heresy dread for inspiration.

The mechadendrites and sensor quills are for the whole porcupine look. Which frankly I adore. (though I guess I can see why you guys wouldn't. Personally I think it's just because no one has made a fucking badass drawing involving them to win everyone over. We need more Icelus art.

The spines and 'dendrites can be mostly retracted or pressed against the chassis when a sleek, stealthy profile is called for though.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 22:59:14 No.15405552 Report

Quoted By: >>15405568

>>15405433
Read the back threads. They're based on the pre-heresy design, which can best be described as sleek and potato shaped. Look for "pre heresy dread" on Images to see what I mean.

Honestly, the back threads are on suptg...

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:02:14 No.15405568 Report

Quoted By:

>>15405537
>>15405552
So they're turned so they're pressed against it's back when not in use? Sounds cool.

>>15405485
Well, it'll probably be good art, but it won't be an Icelus-mark dread. Maybe one of the Chapter's more standard patterns.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 'sup~.jpg, 525KiB, 800x600

WE Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:06:14 No.15405595 Report

Quoted By: >>15405701

>>15405400
>>15405406

Thanks for clearing that out. I had my cogitators swapped.

>>15405428

It based on the Heresy-Era Dreads but I believe that we should only go so far with it. As for the potato thing...

>>15405433

Yep, Besides that Venerable-Style look ROCKS.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus_Dreadnought_Concept.jpg, 185KiB, 900x1200

Jareddm Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:20:14 No.15405677 Report

Quoted By:

As another comparison.

Perhaps the only real change I see is removing the rectangular backing of the center, which I find as one of the most defining characteristics that differentiates the pre-heresy design and the newer designs.

Anonymous Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:25:14 No.15405701 Report

Quoted By: >>15405952 >>15405984

>>15405595
If by "based on" you mean "is" than yes.

We've had a whole big thing about this before. A few times actually. The conclusion each time was that if we make it a special snowflake dreadnought that really is our own special utterly unique mark than that's kinda derpy and upsets the delicate balance we have of awesome fluff vs. too much awesome fluff. Y'know?

The Icelus IS a pre heresy dreadnought. Each and every part down to the last nut and bolt is master crafted, but it IS nevertheless a pre-heresy mark of dreadnought.

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:29:14 No.15405736 Report

Quoted By:

Back, and yeah for the really meaty Icelus Dreadnought details you will have to read the back threads. As a bonus you get to see how we arrived at the current version too.

Starshadow Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:53:14 No.15405933 Report

Quoted By:

Catching up with some old stuff

>Yes. There's an AM presence on Icelus, and they work together, but they're not buddies, not like the Nightmares and the Scholastica Psykana, who we could make as the chapter serfs.
Okay, so the only "outsider" people who become serfs of the chapter are the attendants from the Psykana.

I'm pretty sure we mentioned that the chapter serfs, the technical ones in particular, were given much more responsibility and training. Simply because marines will be sleeping all the time and a lot of jobs will be chronically short of manpower.

So while they may not be ordained techpriests in a religious sense. A lot of the serfs will be highly skilled, enough to be considered Engineseers in their own right. The difference between them and the ones found in a guard company is that their loyalty is to the chapter first, THEN to the Omnissiah, like techmarines.

>>15396586
>It's just Captains that have the piece of the Emperor's armor, according to the three sources that article listed.
Ah, well how recent are those sources? I'm pretty sure the 5th edition codexes describe terminator suits as "irreplaceable relics" and to lose even one of them is "an affront to the Emperor" because they all have a bit of his armour in them.

In any case the newer fluff makes more sense so we might as well go with that. The Nightmares had 50 suits, lost 5 of them and probably won't be getting more. 5 of the suits (including 3 gifted by the raven guard) are used by the chapter honour guard. The other 40 are spread evenly among Primus companies.

ComfyCushion Mon 27 Jun 2011 23:57:14 No.15405952 Report

Quoted By: >>15406021

>>15405701
That really makes the Icelus Dreadnought boring. And the Icelus is the coolest thing about the Nightmares for me.

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:01:14 No.15405984 Report

Quoted By: >>15406044

>>15405701

Also, I've been her since thread #10, and I've never seen anywhere where it was conclusively decided the Icelus pattern is strictly a pre-heresy dreadnought. It's always been based on a pre-heresy frame.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:06:14 No.15406021 Report

Quoted By:

>>15405952
As the anon who did most of the core concept and wrote most of the Icelus wiki, I humbly disagree.

They are pre-heresy dreadnoughts used creatively in a new way. Thus drawing from the Nightmares themes of both technological and tactical creativity and of the Nightmares' respect for traditions and old ways.

The Icelus does not get any less cool because we call it "a master crafted mark I dreadnought" instead of "nightmare pattern nightmare suit of the Emperors Nightmare used at night while riding mares"

If anything it gets much more cool.

Honestly I was somewhat opposed to even making the devastator dreadnoughts special. My original draft on them had them as regular riflemen with codex devastator markings. Unlike them though the Icelus is my baby. I'd rather core bits of what it is weren't tweaked at this late stage just so we can make the chapter more special snowflake for no real reason.

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:08:14 No.15406039 Report

Quoted By: >>15406061

People seem to be forgetting that pre-heresy doesn't necessarily imply one design. Both the Mk 3 and Mk 4 dreadnought armor, as well as all the variants that go with it, ironclad, mortis, hellstorm, are all considered post-heresy. There's no reason each Icelus can't look a little bit different and still technically be a pre-heresy dreadnought.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:09:14 No.15406044 Report

Quoted By:

>>15405984
Based on in the same way that an annihilator predator was "based on" a destructor when the Space Wolves made them. It still is a pre-heresy dread. It just has lots of other stuff bolted on and some parts made to a higher standard. I never meant to imply otherwise in my writings.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:11:14 No.15406061 Report

Quoted By:

>>15406039
True dat. Really there's no problem with it looking a bit different. That's where the master crafting comes in.

There's just absolutely no need to say it somehow ISN'T a pre-heresy mark just so we can be special snowflakes all over again.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:17:14 No.15406107 Report

Quoted By: >>15406195

In terms of departure from the original design, there are 3 major differences between the Icelus and the Pre-heresy

1. The dreadnought as a whole is a lot smaller. It stands as tall as a mark 4/5 which IIRC is about 12 feet. But it is significantly thinner in profile.

2. The chassis has been stripped down. Most of the armour is removed, the shoulder pads and the chest area in particular. What plating is left is heavy articulated instead of being mounted in large plates. This allows each joint to be much more flexible.

3. The legs of the walker have been lengthened. Instead of being stumpy dwarf legs, they are more in proportion with a humans legs. This brings the overall proportions of the walker closer to a space marine.

The overall point of the design is to create stealthy platform that controls as much like a marines original body. This way he can practice his stealth skills to their fullest extend and does not lose any of his inherent agility.

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:27:14 No.15406195 Report

Quoted By: >>15406315

>>15406107
So from what I can tell, it's really only the legs that differs from what we had originally come up with. Personally I think Cushions design is significantly slimmer than a normal dreadnought. It's certainly lankier, much like an orangutan.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:42:14 No.15406315 Report

Quoted By: >>15406366

>>15406195
I think his design is pretty cool, but it doesn't quite match everything we already came up with. His drawing is what you get when you strip down a Mark 4 dreadnought. But the Pre-Heresy dreadnoughts are very different. The orientation of the hips and shoulders are closer to a humans. And they have actual joints instead of chunky shoulders and hips that only rotate up and down.

I'm not implying we need to throw it out however. When Venerable Gavroche got everyone onto the stealthnought train, the techmarine's first attempt involved putting stummers and such on a regular Mark 5. Even though this didn't result in the Icelus we know, the lessons learned can still be applied to other Secundus dreadnoughts.

So what he drew could very well be an earlier attempt. The techmarines would have started with the Mark 5. But who says they didn't try all the previous marks before ariving at the pre-heresy design?

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 00:48:14 No.15406366 Report

Quoted By:

I took a moment to archive the thread. Be back later.

>>15406315
Also, don't forget that there are many pictures in the old threads and the wiki that depict Icelus Dreadnoughts that are MUCH closer to the original unmodified dreadnought chassis.

All of these designs are perfectly valid. Designing the Icelus was an iterative process. Each one is literally hand built from scratch. No two walkers are exactly alike. Each further generation bringing improvements.

There are currently 24 Icelus dreadnoughts in the chapter, not counting the experimental versions and combat losses. That is a lot of room for artistic license.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus2.png, 132KiB, 771x764

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:04:14 No.15406487 Report

Quoted By: >>15406514 >>15406554 >>15406741 >>15406933 >>15407506

Is this starting to look more like it?

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:07:14 No.15406514 Report

Quoted By:

>>15406487
Personally, I preferred the first one, but I feel this is more of what the others had in mind.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:13:14 No.15406554 Report

Quoted By: >>15406732

>>15406487
oh god! the other one, please this looks like a Warjack

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace skitarii WIN.jpg, 180KiB, 900x546

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:16:17 No.15406589 Report

Quoted By:

>>15358325
>>15357637

mfw i love EVERYTHING about this chapter.

captcha: for otheate

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:24:14 No.15406653 Report

Quoted By: >>15406729

Just needs proper shoulderpads and it's good to go.

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:32:14 No.15406729 Report

Quoted By: >>15407688

>>15406653
Shoulder pads'll weigh it down. Hinder movement.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:32:14 No.15406732 Report

Quoted By:

>>15406554
I believe someone raised that point before. Let's just say that it looks quite different when running, charging in with sensor spines raised and leave it at that.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:32:14 No.15406741 Report

Quoted By: >>15406777

>>15406487
Starting

To nitpick: The legs should have ball joints and probably be a little longer (the shoulders should probably also have ball joints too but that's less important and could maybe even vary from Icelus to Icelus). The body could probably also be stripped down a little thinner. It's a short dreadnought, but it's supposed to look lean and tall just because it's so stripped down and gaunt. Sniper rifle could stand to be beefed up a little bit. Using the astartes helmet there as reference the body is about as wide as a boltgun at the top. Lightning claws are about right proportionally but the sniper rifle could be a teeny bit larger.

Nice drawing in its own right though. And our thanks for doing these.

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:35:14 No.15406777 Report

Quoted By:

>>15406741
Isn't the dreadnought head bigger than an astartes helmet?

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:36:14 No.15406784 Report

Quoted By: >>15406884

True, but the arms look strange without them. Maybe just plates on the side that partially cover the "hinge" or something? Dunno. Really like the look of it so far btw.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:38:14 No.15406801 Report

Quoted By: >>15406833

Yes, the dreadnought "helmet" is several times a real helmet in most dreads. GW just got lazy with their plastic kit for it. The art, FW models, and diagrams support this.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:42:14 No.15406833 Report

Quoted By:

>>15406801
Even if they did, they covered their tracks by making the tiny heads in a lot of the artwork too. I'd say it's about 1:1 in helmet size. The sarcophagus itself is about marine sized after all... being that there is a marine in it.

Regardless the sniper rifle does look just the slightest bit dinky compared to the rest of the dread.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:46:14 No.15406884 Report

Quoted By: >>15407598

>>15406784
Lets not forget that there's usually a huge camo tarp worn like a poncho over all of this to protect the sensitive sensor quills from rain (and obvious stealth uses). Once that's factored in the rounded shoulders look quite nice. In my mind's eye at least.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 01:51:14 No.15406933 Report

Quoted By: >>15407920

>>15406487
The rifle's fine; maybe just an ammo feed or something, or a support. The arms could be pulled in a bit, though: the circular bits should almost touch the torso; they're a bit too far out right now. Almost there!

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace seraphis dreadnought.jpg, 27KiB, 346x501

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:00:14 No.15407506 Report

Quoted By: >>15407806

>>15406487
i really don't like those tiny feet. i think if they were bigger, and better articulated, they could better absorb the impact of heavy footfalls.

also, i would prefer that we kept the shoulder guards.

just imagine tall, thick groupings of spikes pitching off of the top and back of this thing... and maybe the forearms and legs as well!

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelusassault.jpg, 222KiB, 800x600

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:12:14 No.15407598 Report

Quoted By:

>Let's just say that it looks quite different when running, charging in with sensor spines raised and leave it at that.
Indeed. For reference and comparison, this is what a "dynamic" pose looks like. Lets see a Mark 5 do THAT with its legs! So don't sweat the minor details too much when looking at a "schematic" view.

IIRC this is actually the first picture drawn of the Icelus. When you compare him to hootymcrapeclaws earlier in the thread you can see the difference between a simply "agile" pre-heresy dread, and a redesigned version which streamlines the body and adds more bling.

>>15406884
Yeah, the entire dreadnought will be covered in a form-blurring ghillie suit when deployed in forested locations or during daylight hours.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace khornedread.jpg, 200KiB, 600x1830

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:22:14 No.15407688 Report

Quoted By: >>15407920

>>15406729
Its okay if they have shoulderpads. Just think of it as a streamlined "cap" for the shoulders like scout carapace armour, or a marine has when you take off his shoulderpads. Its still armour, but not a FUCKUEG pauldron.

Here is another dreadnought in a dynamic pose. In your mind compare this to a dead with a lascannon and missile launcher instead of arms. Quite a bit different from the static "turret" pose aint it?

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:32:14 No.15407806 Report

Quoted By: >>15407843 >>15408008

>>15407506
I think bigger feet would take away from the whole agile, stealthy nature of the machine. Festooning it with spikes wouldn't be very stealthy, either. Consider me in the anti-spike camp.

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:35:14 No.15407843 Report

Quoted By:

>>15407806
Agreed on all accounts

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:43:14 No.15407920 Report

Quoted By: >>15407977

>>15407688
Grrr, why do I do that -_-. Its not that I misspell a word, or write the wrong word. Whatever part of my brain handles typing just skips a beat and doesn't write a word. Irritating.

>>15406933
I agree with this. Couple of comments:

- Current "canon" is that Icelus shoulder weapons are mounted Hollander style, above/part of the right shoulder. Marines are supposed to be ambidextrous so it can be on the left shoulder too.
- Regular dreadnoughts with shoulder weapons either integrate them into the shoulder past the joint. Or place them on top of the right shoulder like a pintle mount.

When you allow for artistic license keep the following in mind:
- Putting a fixed weapon too high makes the silhouette of the walker taller, which is counterproductive. Most weapons would be on a flexible armature or somehow retractable.
- The pilot can't reload his weapon so it would need either a large magazine or some kind of belt feed system. This is also one possible use for mechadendrites.
- Don't worry too much about matching scale to a normal marine. A big mount is a chance to use a bigger sniper rifle, this IS the Imperium. Vehicle mounted weapons are easier to streamline because a lot of the components can be placed inside the vehicle itself. For a good example of this compare a plasma cannon devastator to the same weapon in a leman russ sponson.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus2.png, 138KiB, 670x781

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:50:14 No.15407977 Report

Quoted By: >>15408043

>>15407920
The way the rifle is mounted, it can be retracted to streamline the profile. Then it can be extended above cover to get line of sight on a target without exposing a large part of the dreadnought.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:53:14 No.15408008 Report

Quoted By:

>>15407806
I'd still prefer bigger feet. Having them shaped like shoes doesn't make much sense either. Even if the walker is lighter the feet still have to respect ground pressure rules.

My preference would be to have them slightly smaller then regular dread feet. But still just as wide and much more articulated. Claws wouldn't be out of place, as an Icelus will need them to climb cliffs and stuff.

Also, do you mean quills or spikes? Spikes are a big no, but quills are fine. Quills can retract or lay flat with ease. The purpose of having quills is that you can extend them upward to look around without revealing your silhouette against the horizon. To enemy observers you would appear like a clump of grass, not a giant boulder like monstrosity.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 03:56:14 No.15408043 Report

Quoted By:

>>15407977
Looking good! I still think the hips should be ball joints. And actual feet would be a plus for reasons mentioned.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus2.png, 153KiB, 724x830

ComfyCushion Tue 28 Jun 2011 04:42:14 No.15408412 Report

Quoted By: >>15408496 >>15408509 >>15413397 >>15418794

I don't want to make the feel bigger, but i'll give the big lug some toes.

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 04:56:14 No.15408496 Report

Quoted By:

>>15408412
That's really looking fantastic. Thanks again for going through all the trouble

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Sentinel w Heavy Plasma Gun.jpg, 47KiB, 873x627

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 04:58:14 No.15408509 Report

Quoted By:

>>15408412
firstly, thanks for continuing to post awesome new art despite all the interjections.

secondly, i like that you're now giving the dread multiple toes; it's another departure from the preheresy dreads and looks more stable imho.

thirdly, an interjection. how about giving these guys 'flat looking', sentinal styled feet, where the tops of the toes are taller than the 'arch'?

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 05:02:14 No.15408532 Report

Quoted By: >>15408568 >>15408569

Man I have this idea of a Chaplain falling asleep in a siege as morale is dropping and this initiate stealing his armor and Crozius in order to raise morale, and when the jig is up a real chaplain is like "Actually you were fucking good at this chaplain thing" and trains him. And that dude becomes the Reclusiarch.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 05:09:14 No.15408568 Report

Quoted By:

>>15408532
Errr... maybe skip the armour stealing part? Also by initiate I assume you mean scout.

My version:
> Chaplain falls asleep in the middle of rallying the troops who are starting to despair.
> Particularly devout scout snatches up his Crozius before it hits the ground and continues right where he left of.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 05:09:14 No.15408569 Report

Quoted By: >>15408587

>>15408532
it could be the result of an unusually protracted campaign, where resources are slim and reinforcements are nil.

captcha: ordurna disaffirm

it seems a bit... childish (maybe i'm too used to the idea of space marines expelling each other for the slightest infraction) but it's not out of the realm of possibility for more creative, assault-y types to designate field promotions.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 05:12:14 No.15408587 Report

Quoted By: >>15408644

>>15408569
>>15408569
>>15408569
by childish i meant kiddy and anime-ish, which generally means all nice and hopeful-like.

the grimdarkness of 40k is infinitely more childish than making reasonable field promotions -particularly for boosting morale.

captcha: elloges rabbit

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 05:21:14 No.15408644 Report

Quoted By: >>15410443

>>15408587
If you want to do something like this, at least make it a full battle brother who picked up the crozius. It's simply doesn't make sense for someone less than that to make such a bold move.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Librarian and Dreadnought.jpg, 513KiB, 1333x1921

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 10:37:14 No.15410431 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 10:40:14 No.15410443 Report

Quoted By: >>15410633

>>15408644
Initiate in the Black Templars sense means someone who has been initiated. IE a full marine as compared to a neophyte scout. Also it doesn't inherently make /less/ sense for a scout to do something naive and foolhardy to gain glory or with the thought he will help his battle brothers.

That said, I agree.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 11:21:14 No.15410633 Report

Quoted By:

>>15410443
The blood ravens scout sergeants and Cyrus all say "Initiates, follow me". Or they used to, they changed all the voices for retribution. Only black templars have neophytes as a concept, so to any other chapter "Initiate" is one step up from "Aspirant" and essentially means a scout who hasn't graduated to marine yet.

Lots of stuff I haven't replied to yet, but I sidetracked writing a small story. Might post tonight, well see.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 14:14:14 No.15411483 Report

Quoted By: >>15411493 >>15414431

=Credit Where Credit Is Due=

>The commissar slammed the butt of his laspistol against the table. “Do not mock the court with your outlandish stories! He bellowed. “Again, the truth this time!”. Private Jardin twisted in his chair, shackles binding him to the seat. “I am telling the truth! I've told you twice now! A marine came to us, his vox was damaged, he said that he required our aid and that his task was of the utmost importance!.” The second commissar shook his head, replying. “Then did he explain what task could merit an entire company of men deserting the line? Disappearing without a word and leaving a breach in our defenses?” Jardin turned to the man and replied. “No, he refused to elaborate. He ordered us to stand back, then displayed a small object to our commander from his palm. He was convinced by whatever it was, and he ordered us to abandon our positions and follow the marine.”
>“And the men followed orders like good little guardsmen” Mocked the third commissar. “All save you, and why is that?” His voice hardened. “Your actions reek of cowardice, you returned alone, and without your weapons to boot”. Jardin gritted his teeth at the words. “The marine singled me out and gave me a task. He ordered me to bear a message back to command, and to stop for nothing or no one. We offered him our vox, but he refused, stating that it was not secure.” Jardin paused. “My rifle was spent, so I discarded it for speed. The marine said that the passage was clear, and it was. I did not ask him how he knew.”
>The courtroom erupted into incredulous whispers as the three commissars looked among each other. “And what became of this message?” The middle one asked. “I delivered it directly to Colonel Tollins”. Replied Jardin. The commissar turned to address Tollins herself who sat nearby. “And you believed this story of his? A deserter who returned alone, with no knowledge of what became of his comrades or where they are?”

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 14:15:14 No.15411493 Report

Quoted By: >>15411501

>>15411483
>Colonel Tollins stood to address the tribunal.”I did not believe him at first, but he bore with him Commander Dalan's scabbard. He is the most senior of my commanders and I trust his judgment. There was also this, from the marine himself.” Tollins lifted her right hand, displaying the object for the court to see. A small aquila perched above an hourglass. “And the content of this message?” The first commissar asked. “A sign and a countersign, spoken on a secure channel tuned to a specific frequency. The message itself was short. Simply, “the emperor protects, the hammer falls” and a description of the aquila charm. There was no reply, and the line cut off.” She explained, then sat. The proceedings continued at speed, the tribunal conferring among themselves, interrogating the accused, and sole witness. Cross examining his commanding officer and other members of his regiment.
>After much heated debate, the proceedings drew to a close. “Colonel Tollins, is there any further witness to the events described in this hearing? Anything at all that might explain the disgraceful conduct exhibited by your men?” After a pause Tollins replied, her face burning with shame. “None save the Emperor”. The verdict was then delivered by the senior commissar. “Due to the lack of concrete evidence explaining the disappearance of an entire company of guardsmen. We are forced to find Private Jardin and the absent 6th Company of the 10th Karelian Grenadiers guilty of deserting their post”. Jardin's hands curled into fists as the man tribunal continued. “The regiment shall henceforth bear the mark of shame and its men known as cowards and-”

>*CLANG*

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 14:17:14 No.15411501 Report

Quoted By: >>15411513

>>15411493

>All heads in the room turned as one to face the door. Jardin twisting in his restraints. The heavy metal panel jerked again and opened a crack. Amid the stuttered objections of the guards outside, the door retracted into the wall. Propelled by an armoured hand. Revealed was the unmistakable silhouette of a space marine as he strode forth into the light. He wore armour of the darkest black, save for the shoulders. One coloured a royal purple, the other clad in an ornate silver pauldron. As he walked the length of the room, members of the audience gasped at his appearance. For his armour was rent and torn, one side of his beaked helmet gouged by a massive impact, the damage ringed by severed wires. Hanging untouched by the storm of battle damage around it, a dreamcatcher hung under the marine's left shoulder. Its cords woven into a beautiful spiral pattern and hung with metal charms at regular intervals. Marring the perfection was a single hole, ripped threads and a missing charm marking the passage of a bullet.
>The marine stopped in front of the dais and addressed the tribunal. “I am Brother Allinafe of the Emperor's Nightmare and the Deathwatch. Am I correct in assuming that Private Jardin has explained the seconding of his company and their departure from the line?”. After a stunned silence, the senior commissar spoke. “Indeed he has milord astartes. Though his explanation beggared belief and-” The marine held up his hand. “That is enough Commissar Rayes, I assure you that his story is very much the truth. I am here to set the record straight”. Rayes blinked in surprise. “How did you-” “Your name is inscribed on the grip of your laspistol”. Allinafe responded. As one Rayes and his colleagues glanced from the laspistol lying on the table, to the marine standing some twenty feet away.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 14:19:14 No.15411513 Report

Quoted By: >>15411521

>>15411501

>Rayes coughed nervously. “Ah... yes, continue please. Describe to the court the sequence of events.” Allinafe reached into one of his belt pockets. His hand emerged training a silver chain. Raising his arm until the inquisitorial rosette was revealed for all to see, he spoke. “By order of Inquisitor Bannon of the Ordo Xenos all present are hereby sworn to silence. Should your rank permit, you will be debriefed later. Discussion of these proceedings or the events surrounding them shall be considered an act of treason.”
>“Seven days ago I was operating on the western front, hunting a quarry I will not specify. My helmet was heavily damaged and the vox circuits destroyed. Unable to call for backup I was forced to enlist Commander Dalan's rifle company and report to my inquisitor by circuitous means. Dalan resisted my orders until I revealed my full authority to him. I then directed Private Jardin to bear a message back to his regimental command post with great haste. The rest of the company was placed under strict vox silence and followed me into battle.”
>Allinafe paused, as the silent room digested the facts and implications. “No record is to remain of 6th Company's involvement in this matter. Save that they served with distinction and acted in the name of the Emperor. Is that understood commissar?” Rayes glanced to his colleagues who returned his look with a nod. “It shall be so”. He stated. “Good” Allinafe replied, before abruptly turning and walking to the chair in the middle of the room.

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 14:20:14 No.15411521 Report

Quoted By:

>>15411513

>“Private Jardin, I thank you for the lending of your blade. As it was destroyed, you may have mine.” With a flick of the wrist, Allinafe drew a combat knife seemingly from midair before placing it in Jardin's hand, still shacked to the chair. Jardin gaped at the massive knife that dwarfed his forearm. Its inwardly curved blade engraved with the images of birds and stars. The marine continued walking, coming to a halt before the seated Colonel Tollins.
>“Colonel, I believe you have something of mine. And I have something to return to you as well.” Tollins gaped at the marine looming above her, before recovering and offering him the aquila in cupped hands. “O-of course sir” She said. As he picked up the aquila, Allinafe moved his left hand over the table and deposited a pile of objects. The handle of a power sword, it blade terminating abruptly in a line of bite marks barely an inch above the crossguard.

>And eighty one silver dogtags.

>“Be proud of your men. They are very brave”.

End

Starshadow Tue 28 Jun 2011 15:29:14 No.15412016 Report

Quoted By: >>15412773 >>15414431

>But if they're simply allowed to continue their work, than why try to hide the fact that they're sleepless?
They are allowed to work, but at home in the armoury. NOT out on deployment. Its no different from keeping any other sleepless at home. You can't just sedate them or lock them all up in a cage. You have to find something for them to do, a task that the whole chapter shares.

The sleepless techmarines are given work to do in the armoury. Either repairing things or crafting new equipment. They are still rather nutty, but as long as they don't lack for something to do they can get by.

This makes sleepless techs a bit more "sane" in the un-ax muderer sense. Working on machines helps to ground them in reality.

>Who do you believe? The Doctor or the Scientist? Especially when they're giving contradictory advice.
Daaaaaamn. I can just imagine the campaign posters. Both of them are red! :P

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 17:10:14 No.15412773 Report

Quoted By:

>>15412016
So what, Sleepless marines work until they die of old age? Space Marines don't do that. They know they are going to die in combat and don't care. Dying of old age would be anathema. Dying in battle as Sleepless is a respite and relief remember? Sleepless Techmarines should only be given a place in a workshop for so long until they're removed.

Anonymous Tue 28 Jun 2011 18:30:14 No.15413397 Report

Quoted By:

>>15408412
Wow. Just wow. All objections withdrawn, this thing looks great. Definitely should go on the wiki.

Thanks.

Jareddm Tue 28 Jun 2011 20:24:14 No.15414431 Report

Quoted By: >>15417781

>>15411483
Very nice. I really enjoyed that.

>>15412016
But keeping the sleepless techmarines working is only a stopgap, not a permanent solution. Yes, focusing on work does help them stave off the more violent tendencies of sleeplessness, but it only goes so far. Eventually, they will go off the deep end and lose themselves entirely and when that happens, they're going to be part of the sleepless companies just like any other Nightmare. Eidelan is worried that when that moment comes, the techmarine will be surrounded by other workers and delicate machinery. He feels it's not worth the risk that they start attacking everyone and everything in sight while on the job. Fervesco feels that before this happens, we should get as much high quality work as we can out of them. That there's too much to lose NOT letting them continue working.

The fact that Fervesco is encouraging his techmarines to become sleepless is another matter entirely.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 01:40:14 No.15417781 Report

Quoted By:

>>15414431
Hmm, okay. So "recent" Sleepless can be distracted fairly well by work, games and such. But once they reach the point of no return they can no longer differentiate friend or foe. The only thing you can do at that point is to send them into combat one last time.

Techmarines simply get put to work in the armoury. But in a controlled environment. I'm not sure if you would want to bring them on campaign, even if the only thing left they can do is die in combat. Didn't we have an instance of a Waking Dead dreadnought escaping and destroying the gellar field of a ship? A techmarine would be just as much of a problem.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace EN vs AM.jpg, 90KiB, 590x900

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 02:21:14 No.15418085 Report

Quoted By: >>15418264 >>15418278

Behold! One of the Emperor's Nightmare elite Nightkin standing over a defeated enemy!

A few notes:
The mark VI armor has been highly customized and refitted to suit the unique tactics of the Nightkin marines, including an altered pauldron and a thinner frame.

The Nightkin marine carries two Dreamcatchers with him. One his own, the other of his brethren, fallen in battle and to be returned to the sacred halls.

What does everyone think?

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 02:40:14 No.15418264 Report

Quoted By:

>>15418085
We think it is the greatest thing since ice cream. Obviously.

Fuckin' badass.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 02:42:14 No.15418278 Report

Quoted By: >>15418419

>>15418085
Heh, my thoughts basically went like this:

> Cool man!
> Looks kind of like master chief
> I like the stylized look
> Artificer armour go!

My only gripe is that the dreamcatchers seems rather tiny. But then I realized that you wouldn't want to take a giant glittering dreamcatcher into combat when you are trying to be stealthy.

However the dreamcatcher is supposed to be big enough to mount all sorts of charms and stuff. These are what the Nightmares use for rank, length of service, and proficiency insignia. Another Nightmare can glance at yours and read it like a barcode.

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 02:57:14 No.15418419 Report

Quoted By: >>15418541 >>15418630

>>15418278
It was originally supposed to be a Primus marine.

Artist, who loves 40k but has never actually drawn space marines before, was simply appalled by the proportions of the space marine and his armor. It was a bit of an argument but in the end, he drew human proportions and armor that he stated, "Would actually be able to move in." So to explain the changes, I had him change the color scheme to a Nightkin, who would have those kinds of alterations.

>use for rank, length of service, and proficiency insignia
Since when? The dreamcatcher is a personal item tied to a Nightmare's beliefs and experiences. Sure they'll be some similar items like aquilas and hourglasses, but it shouldn't be standardized such that, "This represents a sergeant, this is the sign of a good marksman" We have the whole rest of the marine's armor to place marks of rank and honor.

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:13:14 No.15418541 Report

Quoted By: >>15418591

>>15418419
Now here's the biggest question of all...

What's going on with Aerion-The-Faithful?

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:18:14 No.15418591 Report

Quoted By:

>>15418541
He's been super busy with with other commissions and his Free Mars project. Though I'll give him a ring just to see if any progress has been made on my image.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:23:14 No.15418630 Report

Quoted By: >>15418706

>>15418419
Yeah only to a degree. Achieving a rank or skill will sometimes grant a marine a metal charm. Its up to him whether or not he wants to incorporate it into his dreamcatcher. Its by no means standardized. A marine who is going to be on parade would probably weave all of the charms relating to length of servings can campaigns fought. That sort of thing.

A marine's state of mind and recent dreams are reflected in his catcher. To most people the details seem impenetrably complex, but other Nightmares can quickly pick up every detail and read the symbolism like a book.

Also, not all decorations take the form of a metal charm. Braided knots or cords could represent campaign ribbons and the like. And charms are not necessarily woven into the net. They can be tied to the rim, dangling underneath or from the cord that hangs it from the marines armour.

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:33:14 No.15418706 Report

Quoted By: >>15418792

>>15418630
All true and all good ideas. All I'm saying is not all of those things need to be worn as part of the dreamcatcher. Rank markings on helmets, company heraldry on pauldrons, high honors like the crux terminatus. There's plenty of other places to add personality to a marine other than the dreamcatcher. No need to squish them all in one spot.

I REALLY like the braided cords/knots for length of service though.

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:40:14 No.15418756 Report

Quoted By: >>15420692

I'd hate to see what a Sleepless Venerable Dread would be like. Dreadnoughts need rest, and 3000 years without it would be bad.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:48:14 No.15418792 Report

Quoted By:

>>15418706
True. I was thinking that when a marine isn't in armour, he would use his dreamcatcher to display all of the relevant markings. Dreamcatchers can have all sorts of stuff on them besides "official" insignia. Beads, braided cords, tassels, feathers, you name it. Some chapters give their marines service studs, the Nightmares wouldn't need them.

We should have a res/tg/uardian dreamcatcher making contest someday.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace nakano_sora.jpg, 290KiB, 600x800

WE Wed 29 Jun 2011 03:48:14 No.15418794 Report

Quoted By: >>15419143

I'm gone a day and this thread has gone places..

GOOD

>>15408412

This is a good job and much better than I expected when people started asking for the Pre-Herasy look.

Sure I really liked >>15405237 but I can understand why people wanted a more congruent design.

>>That is a lot of room for artistic license.

I'm taking note of that...

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 04:35:14 No.15419143 Report

Quoted By:

>>15418794
Welcome back. Do you like my story? We haven't had new writefaggotry for a long time. I tried very hard to keep it properly grimdark but not to DERP levels.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace c24318.jpg, 35KiB, 316x482

WE Wed 29 Jun 2011 05:40:14 No.15419665 Report

Quoted By: >>15419868

>>I tried very hard to keep it properly grimdark but not to DERP levels.

THIS.

Fluff is at it's best when there is a balance between GRIMDARK and actual plot.

And if someone says something about a Deathwatch Space Marine actually 'caring' for guardsmen...

pic related The Grey Knights themselves do 'care' about the Guardsmen they have to sacrifice.

It's just that, in both cases, duty comes first.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 06:19:14 No.15419868 Report

Quoted By:

>>15419665
Indeed. Duty comes first, but credit should still be given when credit is due. Hence the name.

Has there been anyone playtesting the codex? Making new fluff is all good. But I would still like to be able to finalize it before we move on too far.

Eventually what we want to have is a tabletop codex, a deathwatch supplement that deals with the chapter fluff, and an Icelus setting for use with DH and RT.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus2.png, 223KiB, 724x830

ComfyCushion Wed 29 Jun 2011 07:10:14 No.15420148 Report

Quoted By: >>15420275 >>15420379

colors

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 07:25:14 No.15420275 Report

Quoted By: >>15420748

>>15420148
Looks amazing!

One tiny error. Secundus shoulderpads are actually navy blue. Its very subtle, this picture demonstrates it the best.
>http://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:1297227384926.png

A bit of fluff we have kicking around is that all of the bladed weaponry used by Secundus marines are painted black before combat to avoid reflecting light.

Icelus dreadnought claws are instead made of a black metal that does not reflect light. And every now and then a power sword is made from the same material and given to an especially skilled Secundus marine.

Instead of leaving the power field on all the time, the weapons are only activated moments before impact. Gives a new meaning to the term "lightning strike" doesn't it? :D

This isn't reflected in most of our art to date but is something to consider.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 07:40:14 No.15420379 Report

Quoted By: >>15421056

>>15420148
Oh, and the chapter symbol is supposed to go on the right shoulder.

Let me see if I can remember the different colour schemes we worked out...

Primus: Checkered royal purple and gold. The purple goes on right shoulder. Gold aquila.
Secundus: "navy purple", purple trim, navy blue shoulderpads. Gold aquila, painted black before combat
Nightkin/Icelus: Defaults to Secundus colours when fighting at night. Otherwise wears whatever camouflage is appropriate/necessary for the terrain.
Night Owl veterans: Obsidian black with gold trim.
Honour Guard: Same as Night Owls, only the black has a very subtle feather pattern to it.

Dreadnoughts follow the same colour schemes more or less, depending on what battlegroup they deploy with. Icelus dreadnoughts and scouts always wear secundus colours.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 07:44:14 No.15420413 Report

Quoted By:

Things differ a little bit for specialists.

Librarians, apothecaries and techmarines serving with Primus are blue, white and red respectively. Save for the shoulders which bear chapter colours.

Specialists serving with Secundus are a little different because they rely more on stealth. Instead of fully coloured armour, they wear the default scheme and only their helmet is coloured. Techmarines have red helmets, librarians have blue helmets and apocs have grey helmets.

Chaplains have black armour with gold trim and a bone coloured helmet. The scheme is the same for both companies, but Secundus chaplains rarely take to the field during stealth operations.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 08:24:14 No.15420692 Report

Quoted By:

>>15418756
Hmm, well sleepless are never put into dreadnought frames. But there are a handful of dreads that become sleepless after the process.

As to them being venerable. How old does a dreadnought have to be before it can be considered venerable? The oldest one, Bjorn, is over 10k years for instance. Sleeplessness can happen at any stage of a marines life once he has the geneseed.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus2.png, 220KiB, 724x830

ComfyCushion Wed 29 Jun 2011 08:34:14 No.15420748 Report

Quoted By: >>15422416 >>15430461

>>15420275
Better?

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 09:35:14 No.15421056 Report

Quoted By: >>15422324 >>15422416

>>15420379
>Icelus dreadnoughts and scouts always wear secundus colours.

I could've sworn Icelus dreads were painted by battlegroup too. We've had Icelus assault dreads working under Primus since their creation. Unlike devastator dreads they're not officially in the company of course, and they're not exactly night owls either, but unless I missed something they don't have a set-in-stone colour scheme anymore than they have a set-in-stone master crafted shape that looks identical to every other icelus dread. (And if I have missed something I respectfully disagree with it.)

By the by, while I do think the art is completely sweet I think it's sorta funny that the artist would cite wacky marine anatomy and then draw a tiny groin and torso like that. Hips don't work that way. Still awesome of course. Just mildly ironic.

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 09:46:14 No.15421107 Report

Quoted By: >>15422211

rolled 11 = 11

>>15377975

> Unknown number of sleepless techmarines, very reclusive. Always working on something.

>Techmarine Ulric has created a masterpiece!
>It is a Adamantium Chainsword inlaid with picture of the Emperor of Mankind and a Demon the Demon is in the fetal position and the Emperor of Mankind is laughing

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 13:30:14 No.15422211 Report

Quoted By:

>>15421107
So there were "negotiations" with Eldar?

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 13:50:14 No.15422324 Report

Quoted By: >>15422482

>>15421056
You're correct. Both primus and secundus make use of icelus dreads in the same way both make use of sleepless. Simply one gets more use than the other. On the other hand, nightkin and assault marines are exclusive to their respective battlegroups.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 14:06:14 No.15422416 Report

Quoted By:

>>15420748
The purple trim is a little bright. Otherwise you nailed it. Good work!

>>15421056
It depends. Icelus dreadnoughts are never permanently assigned to Primus companies. Just like how Secundus never has any terminators on the org chart. This is never a huge deal because more often than not a Primus company will always be deployed alongside a Secundus company.

Icelus dreadnoughts don't have much armour and they can be knocked out by relatively light weapons. But you can't hit what you can't see. So they rely completely on stealth and surprise to get things done. Painting an Icelus yellow would defeat the purpose, unless you deploy them to some bizarre jungle world where everything is yellow instead of green.

Icelus dreads and Secundus units tend to deploy in the "default" purple colours instead of something special. This is because they generally attack at night. During the day camouflage becomes more important because there are less shadows and you must hide in plain sight.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 14:19:14 No.15422482 Report

Quoted By: >>15422509

>>15422324
Not exactly. Both Primus and Secundus are made up of fully trained tactical marines. Deploying as an assault marine is just a kit change from bolter to chainsword.

Secundus does field tactical and assault squads, its just that the situation rarely requires it. Most of the time they will be skulking around the shadows. But they would properly equip themselves if they had to defend a static position. Also, they probably don't use chainswords, too noisy. They have plenty of fixed blades in any case.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 14:22:14 No.15422509 Report

Quoted By:

>>15422482
Then again... imagine fighting someone with a chainsword covered in stummers. It rips and tears stuff apart and shreds metal into a shower of sparks. All without a sound!

253 posts btw. How high was the autosage limit?

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 14:29:14 No.15422558 Report

Quoted By: >>15423807

Do any of you actually play with this chapter? To you own models etc?

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 14:32:14 No.15422573 Report

Quoted By:

>Terminators
My mistake. This is what I was referring to.

And it's 300 posts.

Starshadow Wed 29 Jun 2011 18:01:14 No.15423807 Report

Quoted By:

>>15422558
There have been some playtests but so far as I know the only miniatures of the EN produced to date are a single tactical squad. You can see them on the codex page of the wiki.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace morito.jpg, 152KiB, 1433x1576

WE Wed 29 Jun 2011 19:37:14 No.15424664 Report

Quoted By: >>15425382 >>15427404

>>Imagine fighting someone with a chainsword covered in stummers. It rips and tears stuff apart and shreds metal into a shower of sparks. All without a sound!

Yep, That's stuff is straight out of a Nightmare...

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 1302138242305.png, 207KiB, 405x540

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 20:45:14 No.15425382 Report

Quoted By:

>>15424664
YEEAAAAAHHHHHH!

Cartography Servitor Wed 29 Jun 2011 22:21:14 No.15426142 Report

Quoted By: >>15426263 >>15426791

namefagging for a quick post to keep you guys up to date. I've been damned busy but I have a ton of notes. Sooner or later I'll finish the next draft with rails, petrified forests, the well known oases, sealed off ground around secundus to fit with canon and so on. Also making the equator a tiiiiny bit smaller by making the scale thingy bigger. Icelus is bigger than earth but not by the amount I currently have it.

This thread's pretty big but if you guys feel like discussing any other specific changes you want, just compile a list for me in the next thread. I've been pretty active in every thread since the beginning so I have lots of notes and ideas myself, but more ideas are always appreciated even if there's some overlap.

Once that draft's done I'll hold off a bit so we can work on the Dark Heresy campaign setting a bit more. In particular I'd like to submit a question for your consideration. Maybe it's a question we ultimately will decide it's cooler not to answer, but we should still think about it:

Who wrote this map?

Personally I've been imagining it as something that has been owned and added to by a wide variety of people over a few centuries. The secret treasure map of Icelus. Anything more specific I leave up to you guys though.

Jareddm Wed 29 Jun 2011 22:42:14 No.15426263 Report

Quoted By: >>15427404

>>15426142
Perhaps an individual that a party that had just arrived on Icelus would meet? A famous traveler/guide of Icelus who keeps a home in Secundus. Or the great great grandfather of said guide.

As far as the map, the only thing I can think of is that I figured Redemptionist territories were in the North, up near the archipelago. And that archipelago is spelled wrong.

Anonymous Wed 29 Jun 2011 23:55:14 No.15426791 Report

Quoted By: >>15427404 >>15427705

>>15426142
I don't think it should be a treasure map, but I like the idea that it's something multiple people have been working on over generations, painstakingly recording every little tidbit. Of course, I also think there should be a few mysterious blotches that people think are dead zones in Icelus but are in fact copied from an ancient map dated several hundreds of years ago that just happened to have a few caffeine stains that the cartographer never got the proper chance to clean up.

Add a bit of proper 40K humor in there. The map itself is biased, and while fairly accurate, not completely so.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace k+.jpg, 191KiB, 636x900

WE Thu 30 Jun 2011 00:47:14 No.15427176 Report

Quoted By:

>>but are in fact copied from an ancient map dated several hundreds of years ago that just happened to have a few caffeine stains that the cartographer never got the proper chance to clean up.

Quoted for Accuracy.

It would be so 40k for the =I= team sent to investigate some strange storm reports deep in the wastelands of Icelus only to stamp their ride on a not-so-Flat-Mountain in the middle of nowhere.

Of course, they are now stuck there without transport, no way to vox back and quite stunned/wounded because of their crash landing. Fortunately, they soon discover they are not alone in the mountain...

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 01:19:14 No.15427404 Report

Quoted By: >>15427705

>>15424664
Heh, well ya know. You can't consider yourself a tactical genius until you can sneak attack someone with a chainsaw.

>>15426263
Are you sure we need raiders in the north? They wouldn't live too far away from the hives because there would be no traffic around to raid. Then again not all raiders are mechanized, and or redemptionists. So it could fit.

>>15426791
That could work. a map like this would certainly have one or two "Here be dragons" areas.

One thing we could do is have two versions of the map. A Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy map which is the "biased" and "fantastical" version of Icelus which shows the major train routes, and trading stations accurately. But perhaps fudges the location of nomads and "lost" locations like the crashed Oberon. Betten Burgen is marked on the map, but only as a general location.

And then you would also have a Deathwatch map which would be far more accurate. Based on the information known by the Chapter, the Mechanicus and the Inquisition. Orbital scans, terrain surveys etc. Unlike the other map it would also display the location of PDF garrisons as well as Inquisition and Mechancus outposts.

It would be a ton of work, and we would have to come up with pages of fluff. But I think it would be cool.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 01:42:14 No.15427587 Report

Quoted By: >>15427789 >>15428831

>>15366095

I wrote a pair of stories from a Redemptionist POV a while ago, not sure where it is. I don't think they were added to the archive, but I'm not sure they merit doing so. Don't know how many people liked them.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 02:06:14 No.15427705 Report

Quoted By:

>>15427404
>Then again not all raiders are mechanized, and or redemptionists.
Exactly what I was going to say. Raiders are everywhere and come from all types of nomads. But Redemptionists are specifically those who still hold on to the hateful beliefs of their ancestors strongly and maintain semi-permanent settlements in the North, in what they consider their ancestral homes.

Well, we'll make adjustments to the map we have, which can be the fantasy map. We had planned on only one other map, that would have the actual spheres of influence of all the various hives and clans and organizations on it.

>>15426791
This is the kind of thing where we could have differences between the map we have, and the tactical map we'd be doing next. Perhaps removing the crash site of the oberon class starship on the fantasy map but hacing, "Unusually large heat signature" on the tactical map where the crash site would be.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 02:22:14 No.15427789 Report

Quoted By: >>15427905

>>15427587
I remember those. They were pretty good. Stick it up on the wiki.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 02:37:14 No.15427905 Report

Quoted By:

>>15427789

I don't know how.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 03:10:14 No.15428253 Report

Quoted By:

This thread will be one week old in about two hours.

Carry on, you flower children. Carry on. To the heights of Betten-Burgen and the stars beyond!

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 03:27:14 No.15428473 Report

Quoted By: >>15428793

Right then. Let's see what we've got.

We've started up work on the map again.
Got a FANTASTIC drawing of an icelus dread.
Picked up a new story.

What ever happened to the company banners? I know we had really good descriptions for all of them, but I don't think they were ever drawn beyond some really rudimentary ideas.

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 04:00:14 No.15428793 Report

Quoted By:

>>15428473
Back burner I guess. I can dig up the info if you want.

We also got started testing out the codex. This is the first thread where the crunch has been technically complete. All we need is more volunteers.

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WE Thu 30 Jun 2011 04:04:14 No.15428831 Report

Quoted By: >>15428897

>>15427587

Upload them, not much people has the time to say it (threads go to places in record time) but they are good.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 04:13:14 No.15428897 Report

Quoted By: >>15429387

>>15428831
That seems to be the problem. None of us (or at least two us) don't know how to make new pages on the wiki. Only how to edit existing pages.

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 05:09:14 No.15429387 Report

Quoted By: >>15433254 >>15434383

>>15428897
I figured it out, at least enough for stories.

The way a wiki works is that accessing an empty page instantly creates that page. In order to do anything with it you just need to put content on it and link it from somewhere else.

I just posted the story I made above, this is how:
> Type the URL of the page you want to create.
> Example http://1d4chan.org/wiki/NEWPAGEHERE
> Spaces are denoted by an underscore.
> Example http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Credit_Where_Credit_Is_Due
> Go to writefaggotry section
> To create a link to the page you type its name and box it in like so: [[example]] this creates a link to the page with the same name as the boxed words.
> Link writefaggotry section to the story you posted.
> ????????
> PROFIT!

Eventually we should go over the list one more type and sort them by main character and write a little synopsis. Should we add the authors too? (if not anon)

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WE Thu 30 Jun 2011 07:23:14 No.15430461 Report

Quoted By: >>15430811 >>15432861

>>15420748

Before I forget, I know this is near what people has in mind but, just to recap, What is this draw supposedly missing? Other than mechadendrites and stummers that's it.

PS This drawing has come along very well btw.

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 08:27:14 No.15430811 Report

Quoted By: >>15434383

>>15430461
The stummers are not visible outside of the armour plating. As to the picture its missing the sensor spines and mechadendrites. But its not a big deal because both of them are retractable.

I still think every Icelus should have them as they both serve an important purpose. They both allow the walker to peer around corners without LOOOOOMING around a corner, or silhouetting themselves over the horizon. And they also form part of the walkers sensor array, picking up visual and audio input.

The mechadendrites are also needed because the walker can't manipulate anything with its claws.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 15:53:14 No.15432861 Report

Quoted By:

>>15430461
Mechadendrites, sensor quills, camo tarp, heroic pose, It raelly is coming along nicely.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 16:54:14 No.15433254 Report

Quoted By: >>15433691

>>15429387

Managed to figure it out. Thanks for the help. The Redemptionist stories are up under "The Meeting of Clans" and "The Cleansing".

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 17:57:14 No.15433691 Report

Quoted By:

>>15433254
Hah! Very nice. I remember these.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 19:30:14 No.15434383 Report

Quoted By: >>15434781 >>15435314

>>15429387
Thanks for the help! I put the Expletus Dissimul Insurrection up on the wiki.

>>15430811
About the sensor spines. Do they really have to be a physical structure on the outside? Couldn't it just be an internal component? Having seen Magi's image of the Icelus Dread with only mechadendrites, I feel it would look too messy having more stuff on the outside. Also, I don't feel too comfortable having the mechadendrites retractable. Retractability has always been seen by me as a form of miniaturization, which is the one quality that I don't feel is appropriate for any Imperial technology in 40k. Removable, yes, but not at a moment's notice and certainly not without help.

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 20:16:14 No.15434781 Report

Quoted By:

>>15434383
How about we consider the mechadendrites and spines optional? It makes sense to have them, but you wouldn't need them all the time. In fact, in some circumstances they would just slow you down.

Mechadendrites wouldn't be retractable, they just coil up out of sight when you don't need them. If we go with the removable explanation, then sensor spines would not retract, but they would be flexible and able to fold down against the hull. Just like the quills on a porcupine.

Different terrain would merit different equipment. Open ground at night would benefit from the quills. Dense jungle terrain would benefit from camo-netting. And an urban environment like a hive would need mechadendrites to manipulate keypads, doors and stuff.

Icelus dreads with heavy weapons could also use mechadendrites to service and reload. Missile launchers in particular since they can't use a magazine or belt feed.

Starshadow Thu 30 Jun 2011 20:18:14 No.15434797 Report

Quoted By:

280 posts btw. I archived this long ago. So tomorrow I can make a new thread.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 21:18:14 No.15435314 Report

Quoted By: >>15435598 >>15435695 >>15435714

>>15434383
Well the spines are important for the porcupine aesthetic, which I think is completely awesome.

It makes more sense to me that the hose-like mechadendrites would be retractable than the sensor spines.

Both are important to what the Icelus IS. They let it have the obscene perception it needs to stay out of sight of everyone nearby. The optical mechadendrites let it peer around corners. The sensor spines let it do advanced scout work for Secundus.

I guess both could be optional but to me they're quintessential parts of what an Icelus dreadnought is.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 21:36:14 No.15435476 Report

Quoted By:

I'm super jealous of what you guys have going on in here. I really liked one of the other rites of battle chapters that cropped up a little while ago but it didn't get any where near this attention.

Good for you guys, would love to see some elegan/tg/entlemen actually model them up.

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WE Thu 30 Jun 2011 21:50:14 No.15435598 Report

Quoted By:

>>15435314

This.

There is little more to add.

captcha:
>rest selabRe
more whispers...

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:03:14 No.15435695 Report

Quoted By:

>>15435314
All correct.

I think we have our first complete /tg/ Chapter.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:05:14 No.15435714 Report

Quoted By: >>15435767 >>15435827

>>15435314
Thethe thing is, what's the point of being able to see around corners when you can detect the heat signature and motion of everything in a 500 meter radius? That's basically when the sensor spines are doing. Now I can understand the need for mechadendrites for fine manipulation and reloading, but an optical mechadendrite would be obsolete.

Khamura Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:10:14 No.15435767 Report

Quoted By: >>15435827

>>15435714

Redundancy of systems. Never rely on any one thing by itself, especially when it comes to sensory equipment.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:17:14 No.15435827 Report

Quoted By: >>15436068

>>15435767
>>15435714
Redundancy of systems AND the fact that not everything in the 41st millennium has a heat signature.

The Icelus dreadnought ITSELF doesn't have a heat signature for example. That's what all those cooling systems are for.

And all the heat sensors in the world aren't going to tell you important information like what kind of gun your enemy is holding, what exact direction their head is pointing, what other equipment they're wearing, whether they are dressed in loyalist colours or are wearing the uniform of the newly rebelled pdf...

etc, etc.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:41:14 No.15436068 Report

Quoted By: >>15436167

>>15435827
I still think it will look too busy with 50 different wires and cords coming out from its back. Looking more like a techmarine dread than one built for stealth.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:51:14 No.15436167 Report

Quoted By: >>15436188 >>15436618

>>15436068
Eh. You do great work Jared but I do think you need to be shot down on this one. Without a busy mess of sensor quills, mechadendrite dreadlocks and everything in between on its back it's just a slightly thin dreadnought.

And as you may recall the sensor quills are there in part for stealth. The whole idea being they can scan stuff while hulled down so as not to give away their 'characteristic profile'

Also 'techmarine dreadnought' is kinda part of the point isn't it? Both because a lot of techmarines make them with their own preferences in mind and because advanced infiltration often requires mechanical and technical abilities as well as the tools to make use of such knowledge. We have a lot of stuff about them hacking networks, evading security systems and so on. It seems to me that any Icelus pilot would need a crash course on a lot of things from the chapter's techmarines if not be a techmarine themselves.

And again, redundancy. Redundancy is important.

Anonymous Thu 30 Jun 2011 22:53:14 No.15436188 Report

Quoted By:

>>15436167
That said, by virtue of what the Icelus dreadnought is, there's no reason you can't model your own master crafted pre-heresy stealth dreadnought to not have so many spines and 'dendrites. Or none at all even.

Call it a prototype or whatever.

Jareddm Thu 30 Jun 2011 23:44:14 No.15436618 Report

Quoted By: >>15436781

>>15436167
I'm perfectly fine with coiled up mechadendrites and removable sensor spines, especially if it's on a mission by mission basis. Sometimes a primus company just needs an extra pair of high speed power claws.

Anonymous Fri 01 Jul 2011 00:00:14 No.15436781 Report

Quoted By:

>>15436618
True dat. I think we can agree to agree, actually. There would be times that they actually are a hindrance and would be removed.

I kinda love that about the Nightmares. They have the utmost respect for their traditions but they also politely break them when needed. They're reasonable marines that are also grimdark. I don't know how we made it work but we did.

Anonymous Fri 01 Jul 2011 00:22:14 No.15436991 Report

Quoted By: >>15437472 >>15437800

I don't really think filling up threads with arguing about minutiae adds anything but codex creep. I say it's about time we stopped tinkering with the Chapter and focused on expanding the Hives of Icelus and plotting some delicious heresy... I mean DH, Ascension and DW campaigns to take place on Icelus. We still haven't fluffed out the governor of Icelus, for instance. And major political figures in the Hives remain undescribed. How about it?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 0625a.jpg, 369KiB, 1105x1012

To Do list

WE Fri 01 Jul 2011 01:09:14 No.15437472 Report

Quoted By:

>>15436991

A big theme for the next thread.

Anonymous Fri 01 Jul 2011 01:43:14 No.15437800 Report

Quoted By:

>>15436991
Absolutely.

To be fair arguing about minutiae has lead to many of our interesting creative projects. We've had two entirely Icelus focused threads so far.

I completely agree that this should be the focus of the project going forward. I think a lot of us even find Icelus to be more compelling as a setting than the Nightmares are as a chapter. The Nightmares are now just one part of a larger idea.

In particular we should fully fluff out the planetary governor, the leaders and power players in all five hives, the leaders of the larger, less inbred redemptionist cults, Nana Wendigo, the leader of the Arbites in hive Primus, the head of the psykana, whoever is in charge of the Star of Dreams, one or two Icelus-born Inquisitors and of course WAY more information about all the train guilds. I remember we had little blurbs on like a dozen of them. We should expand on that.

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WE Fri 01 Jul 2011 02:51:14 No.15438444 Report

Quoted By: >>15438861

>>I completely agree that this should be the focus of the project going forward. I think a lot of us even find Icelus to be more compelling as a setting than the Nightmares are as a chapter. The Nightmares are now just one part of a larger idea.

This is a given or, more precisely, the setting for a campaign, any campaign, is of huge importance. Icelus as a setting is just getting started.

I'm personally (got) interested in all of this for the Nightmares are a truly unique Chapter, others may be here because Emperor only knows why but, from the point of view of a GM, Icelus is a big stack of white paper. All it need is a pen and some players.

Anonymous Fri 01 Jul 2011 03:24:14 No.15438861 Report

Quoted By:

>>15438444
Well yeah it's a given. What I mean is we should more or less stop working on the Nightmares themselves as they can be considered "done" for all intents and purposes. We might come up with more awesome shit for them eventually, but it would be wiser to spend further creative energies on Icelus the setting.

I'm actually shocked we haven't had people reporting in about RogueHeresyWatch games set on Icelus yet. Or quest threads for that matter.

Anonymous Fri 01 Jul 2011 03:33:14 No.15438973 Report

Quoted By: >>15439251

Looks like we've hit autosage. We're somewhere on page ten now.

Whoever sets up the new thread, perhaps consider making a note in the OP that the chapter itself is basically finished fluff-wise and we want creative efforts to be focused on, well, everything else? That's a lot of things. Nomads, hives, trains, redemptionists, flawed ones, arbites, races, the star of dreams, the hive leaders, the planetary governor... all that. Personally I'd love to see a whole campaign set around the trains

Starshadow Fri 01 Jul 2011 04:06:14 No.15439251 Report

Quoted By:

>>15438973
I can set up the next one. Give me a minute.

The crunch is complete, just not tested. I would very much like to have a finished codex PDF at some point, but we need more than rules.

I'm perfectly fine with putting the chapter on the back burner for a while. The Nightmares are an interesting chapter, but to know anything about them you also have to know about Icelus. The Nightmares are not fluffed out to completion, but the framework is there. Icelus is what needs major construction.

Starshadow Fri 01 Jul 2011 04:22:14 No.15439376 Report

Quoted By:

New thread is a go.

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