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Emperor's Nightmare: Codex Revision

SC Guy Fri 27 Jul 23:44:17 2012 No.20063104 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>20063483 >>20065367

I think it's been a suitable time gap for the Nightmares to have a thread again. I was thinking, considering the Eye of /tg/ campaign is happening, we could give the EN codex a final, enduring digy/brush-up/gutting/playtesting and see if we can't get it done.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nightmare_Tabletop

The first things I have issue with are...

1. The 3rd Company special vehicle things. are they really necessary? At the end of the day the Nightmares aren't a chapter dedicated to vehicular warfare, do we need so many special things taking up space simply because of a company preference?

2. Are we fine with the Sleepless? There was a discussion a while back about making them less Death Company clones and more deranged Lone Wolves. Do we continue this, or are the current rules alright?

SC Guy Fri 27 Jul 2012 23:53:07 No.20063202 Report

Quoted By:

Another thing we need to sort out is the profile of Narthecium Glaives. Personally I'm looking at something along the lines of...

S+1, AP3-4, Special poison attack thingy.

Anonymous Fri 27 Jul 2012 23:53:31 No.20063204 Report

Quoted By: >>20063268 >>20063483

I'm still of the opinion that the blood angels book works fine for them. No need to complicate things.

SC Guy Fri 27 Jul 2012 23:58:32 No.20063268 Report

Quoted By:

>>20063204

I'd say it's a little late for that, considering the work that's been put in already.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:11:16 No.20063429 Report

Quoted By:

Bump.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:15:21 No.20063480 Report

Quoted By:

I was never one for codex rules, but I just thought I'd bring something up. Are there any changes in 6e that we would want to take into account?

1. The 3rd company vehicle was added last minute and really didn't have group approval.

2. This is a more difficult question. I'm personally in favor of leaving them as they are, but I understand some people had wanted them to be smaller units with more focus and less rage.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelus map.jpg, 2MiB, 2133x1600

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:15:31 No.20063483 Report

Quoted By: >>20063564 >>20063598

>>20063104
During my brief foray into the IRC chat, there was some talk about the sleepless being issued carapace armour as a small mercy due to the power armour's auto-senses being entirely too much stimulation (and also due to the power armour itself being too dangerous a weapon to leave a sleepless astartes alone with)

I really liked this and I move we make it 100% canon.

>>20063204
This is absolutely true for a pickup game. Anyone who runs the Nightmares should write up a Blood Angels list for 'em for standardized games. Especially now that Bikes are base toughness 5. Bike characters make very reasonable counts-as platforms for an Icelus dread. No reason they can't have a full fan codex ALSO though.

I would really, REALLY like to hear some stories about Nightmares in deathwatch games. I hope there will be many in this thread.

Also here's the map. Thanks again to Rawk and everyone else who contributed to it.

>darkness knentse
indeed, captcha.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:22:29 No.20063564 Report

Quoted By:

>>20063483

I was a fan of the carapace armour idea, I'll admit. It was just a question of balancing it.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:24:37 No.20063598 Report

Quoted By: >>20063939

>>20063483
I didn't remember the carapace armor suggestion, but it's not a terrible idea. I'd still choose scout armor over carapace armor, as I'm not sure if full-fledged space marines can even fit in carapace armor once they've had their black carapace implanted.

I just got my copy of Honour the Chapter (Which is awesome by the way) and ran a quick game with my group. We had me as an Emperor's Nightmare, primus company, assault marine, a howling griffon's librarian, a black templar assault marine, and a minotaur tactical marine. During mission prep, the howling griffon had a psychic power that allowed us to honor our oaths in blood. The black templar refused to partake in psychic rituals during an oath-taking, something he felt would've twisted the oath he took to join the deathwatch due to a dream he had previously. Out of respect for the power of dreams, I also declined the ritual, despite the bonus it would've given us. I got the biggest smile from the black templar player.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:53:11 No.20063939 Report

Quoted By: >>20063999

>>20063598

That's pretty cool. I've not managed to play a Nightmare yet, the best I managed was a short Dark Heresy campaign set on Icelus.

Yeah, Scout armour would be what we use.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace SUCK YOUR COCK.jpg, 117KiB, 359x762

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:54:04 No.20063953 Report

Quoted By:

Fuck yes, a Nightmares thread!

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:56:25 No.20063981 Report

Quoted By: >>20063991 >>20064032

The mission was search and rescue. Another kill-team, working alongside a small squad of Relictors had fallen in battle against a heavily fortified Vespid colony. While that team had dragged themselves out, they had failed to capture one of the Vespid commander's advanced communication helmets, as well as losing a relic of the Relictors known as Candau's Doom, an archeotech rifle. We went in by drop pod through the back of the colony, the black templar, the minotaur, and myself leading the way. We annihilated the outer guards before an alarm could be raised and got the librarian inside. Once inside, we got into a firefight of Tau and Vespid, who really beat on me and the black templar. I was quite thankful when the librarian could get line of sight and blasted them out of existance. The black templar was just as thankful.
Now that the alarm was raised, we knew the Vespid commander would be coming towards us, thanks to an insanely lucky lore roll by the minotaur, so we set to work looking for Candau's Doom. Two squads of quickly annihilated tau fire warriors later, the librarian was able to sense the archeotech weapon inside one of the vespid's cacoon's. We hacked the thing open and found the archeotech gun, along with the skeletal remains of a space marine, complete with Mk V armor, who from what we could gather, was definitely not a Relictor.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:56:39 No.20063986 Report

Quoted By: >>20064224

Anybody managed to model an Icelus for the tabletop yet?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:56:57 No.20063991 Report

Quoted By:

>>20063981
At this point, the party got into an argument over what to do with the body. Me and the howling griffon wanted to take the body as a bonus, but the minotaur and the black templar were worried we'd have to fight the Vespid commander while carrying it. I agreed to take the body myself, which turned out to be not such a great idea. While it didn't slow me down at all, when we did run into the Vespid commander, which was very soon, he continued to target me, most likely because of the marine I was carrying. So while I tried to parry his attacks, the black templar and the minotaur practically body slammed the commander into a fine paste, catching the communication helmet, and getting out of there as quick as we could.
When we got back to the watch fortress, the black templar was rather forceful in making sure I got the honor of presenting both the recovery of Candau's Doom, and the unknown marine, who we still know nothing about. Overall it was a sweet session.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 00:57:49 No.20063999 Report

Quoted By: >>20064218

>>20063939

I'm curious about the campaign. What did you guys do and what parts of Icelus did you interact with?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:00:45 No.20064032 Report

Quoted By:

>>20063981
>The Black Templar was NOT as thankful.

Stupid mistake.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:20:17 No.20064218 Report

Quoted By: >>20064326

>>20063999

It was a three-player campaign. The non-native acolytes (A mind-cleansed male assassin and a wisecracking female Scum) started off on a Purple Express train headed for Hive Primus from Hive Secundus. When they got into Central Station they were met by the third player, a homesick Tech-priest from Hive Quartus, and they were escorted to the office of one of Primus' nobles.

The gist of the story was that the Acolytes' Ordo Xenos Inquisitor had been called in due to a disturbing series of events unearthed in the massive salt flats flanking Primus. Bodies had been found, horribly dessicated, some of them abhuman and even Xenos. This guy had gone behind the back of the Nightmares in order to get the Inquisition involved.

The ensuing adventure ended up with the acolytes gunfighting with enraged nomads on trains, encounters with redemptionist sects, and a tense situation where they had to explain themselves to an extremely pissed-off Nightkin.

It ended with them accompanying an expedition of the College of Archeologists into the ancient, deep railways, and a fight with blind, mutated Flawed One cultists while the Nightkin fought one of the original Flawed One Nightmare infiltrators to agonising mutual death. Due to good foresight, they were even able to escape the tunnels with their escort dead.

It was great fun.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:20:26 No.20064221 Report

Quoted By:

bump

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:21:03 No.20064224 Report

Quoted By: >>20064269 >>20064276

>>20063986

An Icelus Dreadnought? Hm... The way it's built I'd say it'd have to be constructed of XV-8, Dreadnought, and Terminator parts. Maybe just Terminator parts (with some Sentinel thrown in).

The XV-8 could contribute to the legs, making them look lighter and agile, terminator for the body or arms and weapons... It'd take some work, but we don't have many concept sketches to go off of.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Icelusassault.jpg, 166KiB, 800x600

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:25:22 No.20064269 Report

Quoted By: >>20064293 >>20064305

>>20064224

This is really the only picture we have. See what I mean by XV-8 legs? A little bulking up with random shoulder pads would complete it.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:26:30 No.20064276 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064224

I had an idea to use Contemptor bits with Dreadknight legs. But that would make the Icelus pretty big.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 523px-IcelusDread1.jpg, 41KiB, 523x600

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:28:13 No.20064293 Report

Quoted By: >>20064384

>>20064269
What's wrong with this one? Not enough angles?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace IcelusDread1.jpg, 113KiB, 724x830

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:28:56 No.20064305 Report

Quoted By: >>20064384

>>20064269

We've got this too, which seems more mini sentinel-like.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:29:59 No.20064318 Report

Quoted By: >>20064335 >>20064337 >>20064340 >>20064356 >>20069293

This project is completely new to me.

Did /tg/ actually start a project of statting up an entire Chapter of narcoleptic marines?

Because that's what I'm getting from it, skimming through that page.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:30:53 No.20064326 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064218

Sounds neat, and with my favorite parts of Icelus involved, too.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:31:36 No.20064335 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064318

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Emperor%27s_Nightmare

Pretty much. This ought to clear things up for you.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:31:40 No.20064337 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064318

Not only that, but we also detailed their homeworld and created an amazing planet.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:31:57 No.20064340 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064318

It's been around a while. The writefaggotry is brilliant as well. You should look into it.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:33:21 No.20064356 Report

Quoted By: >>20064418

>>20064318
It's a lot more than that. It's not that their narcoleptic, it's that they alternate between months of wakefulness and months of comatose-like rest. That is their primary flaw. But there's so much more. The need for the dreamcatchers, the reason for The Wake, the Sleepless, not to mention their entire homeworld of Icelus, which we've given a substantial history and detail.

The Emperor's Nightmare can be considered the first "Serious" chapter /tg/ worked on, and I'm damn proud to have been a part of it.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:35:33 No.20064384 Report

Quoted By: >>20064412 >>20064461

>>20064305
>>20064293

Haven't seen that pic. That looks workable, but at the same time kind of dumpy and stubby (this is supposed to be fast?). I was imagining something a bit more slender, yet at the same time having the sarcophagus of an Ironclad as its face. I do like me the Ironclad face.

Perhaps it's just me, but I would like to see a different design implemented, perhaps another pattern?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 600px_Pre_Heresy_Dreadnought.jpg, 160KiB, 600x600

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:38:12 No.20064412 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064384
It was mainly based off of the old pre-heresy design pictured here.

It's not perfect, but it's gone through about half a dozen revisions. Originally it had a much more boxy appearance to the shoulders, closer to what a normal dreadnought would have.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:38:49 No.20064418 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064356

Agreed.

Giving the codex a really in-depth read, some things are inconsistant with the new edition. For example, the Living Nightmare psychic power.

2 - Irritation - The foes are distracted by the dancing images. The target is at -1I and will only move and assault 5" in the ensuing turn.

Of course, assault rules have changed now.

Should it just change to "The target is at -1I, and their movement and charge range is reduced by 1" in their next turn."?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Dreadnoght Leg Modification.jpg, 320KiB, 2114x1877

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:42:03 No.20064461 Report

Quoted By: >>20064710

>>20064384

Longer legs, possibly bent backwards like an ostrich, would contribute to the speedy feel of it, and a slender form would fit better with the striding, stealthy aspect. A sarcophagus design could fit fluff better, as Dreadnought bodies that go inactive are useless for combat. By having a sarcophagus that can be switched out, all their Dreadnought patterns can be implemented even if their pilots cannot.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:50:15 No.20064542 Report

Quoted By: >>20064660

Pointing out potential flaws as I go...

Chief Apothecary Eidelan's special rule, where he can take away the unit's Rage USR (A positive thing in 6th ed) in exchange for a dangerous terrain test. Nowadays this is basically taking away a good rule and paying for it in casualties.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:59:55 No.20064660 Report

Quoted By: >>20064703

>>20064542

Do you mean a positive thing in 5th ed?

The terrain test could be replaced by a different buff, changing buffs to suit the unit's current role or situation (a shooty buff instead of a CC buff).

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:03:44 No.20064703 Report

Quoted By: >>20064805

>>20064660

Well, no. In 5th edition Rage meant you had to hare it towards the nearest enemy. In 6th it gives you +2 attacks on the charge.

I quite like that idea though, but it might be a touch difficult to implement. Any ideas on what this buff could actually be?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:04:32 No.20064710 Report

Quoted By: >>20064805

>>20064461
What do you mean "a dreadnought that goes inactive is useless"? That's true regardless of the design of the dread. The idea was that the Icelus pattern isn't actually a dreadnought, it's meant to be closer in size to terminator armor, sort of a mid-way between the two. Hence why it is referred to Icelus pattern tactical dreadnought armor yet still requires a marine to be permanently entombed..

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:11:58 No.20064805 Report

Quoted By: >>20064887 >>20064901 >>20064919

>>20064710

You're probably right. I'm not up to speed on its fluff, it's been a while. But given that the Nightmares are prone to bouts of inactivity where they can't be awoken (I assume it's true of non-sleepless dreads as well) having designs that incorporate switchable pilots, like extra pilots and competent machine spirits in their vehicles, would mean that they can improvise in a pinch. But I said before, it could just be another pattern or that I'm completely wrong.

>>20064703

Slow and Purposeful, perhaps? Instead of charging madly, the Apothecary reigns them in and keeps them strictly in line until its time to charge. Other buff might work better, Relentless?

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:18:52 No.20064887 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064805

Thing is, Sleepless only have Bolt Pistols.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:20:04 No.20064901 Report

Quoted By: >>20065056

>>20064805
Nightmare dreadnought sarcophagi do get switched out. Venerable Gavroche, our original stealth dreadnought, is rotated between spare dreadnought chassis of whatever design he feels in the mood for.

Keep in mind though that 'sarcophagus' in this context doesn't have to mean a giant box. It is more likely to be the marine's helmet and chest piece with a backing and some cybernetic attachments.

The Icelus has its own entry for ease of reference: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Icelus_Pattern_Tactical_Dreadnought

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:21:19 No.20064919 Report

Quoted By: >>20065056

>>20064805
Ah, now I see where you're coming from. We had written it up that the advanced life support systems of dreadnoughts helps regulate the marine's sleep cycle to where it's approximately what a normal dreadnought's cycle would be. This is the practical reason for why the chapter is more likely to entomb a marine, even if he wasn't "that" much of a great hero, if the a dreadnought is available, in the hopes that his sleep cycle can be stabilized. However, the entombed marine is still prone to having their Catalepsean Node degrade entirely, leading to one of the chapter's greatest shames, The Waking Dead.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:24:41 No.20064960 Report

Quoted By: >>20065041

Gavroche...one of those ideas that always irked me as having that, "Just because he's a badass!" feel to it...It's been in the background for awhile now so I won't complain too much about it.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:31:19 No.20065041 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064960
Yeah ditto but if memory serves he was around basically as long as the chapter. He's the shout out to the original threads right after the deathwatch expansion came out and we found out what stummers were, and realized that we could put them on a dreadnought, which we also now had rules for.

So his "he's a badass just because" aura is kind of an homage to that I guess. But without that context he's a little hollow.

That said, the original Gavroche story here http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Venerable_Gavroche,_the_Stealthnought is pretty good and before /tg/ turned him into the transformer dreadnought superman.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:32:19 No.20065056 Report

Quoted By: >>20065090 >>20065110 >>20065136

>>20064901

I just like the boxy sarcophagus, it's aesthetically pleasing to me and drives home the point that it's a really an armored coffin or casket. Perhaps I'll just toy with the idea and see if it bears an interesting design. I also want to emphasize the sensor spines on its back. Also, what is the base cost of an Icelus Dreadnought? The same as a standard one?

>>20064919

Makes sense, and also makes my point obsolete. And The Walking Dead sound like something that'd be terrifying to field. Are there rules for one?

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:34:43 No.20065090 Report

Quoted By: >>20065116

>>20065056

Yes, Icelus pattern Tactical Dreadnoughts are 100pts a pop.

Waking Dead Dreadnoughts are essentially Death Company Dreadnoughts without access to blood talons.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:36:52 No.20065110 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065056
Every Icelus is a unique work of art. There's no real reason yours can't have a boxy sarcophagus, except for the basic "robotic ninja hedgehog" aesthetic it's always generally been described with.

I think Icelus dreads were around 100 points (right SC guy?) 'Cause they're a bit easier to pop with a krak missile than a normal dreadnought thanks to instant death.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:37:12 No.20065116 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065090

I am a fan of the fact that they take FW Dread Drop Pods. Wouldn't want to field an insane armored giant right next to your baseline troops.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:38:36 No.20065136 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065056
Point cost was something we've always had a lot of difficulty getting right. the Icelus is listed as 100 points base, but I know that's not the true point cost.

And yeah, the Waking Dead are essentially sleepless dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts who, out of combat, have to have their limbs and power supply removed, and kept completely locked up in absolute sensory deprivation in order to bring even the slightest bit of comfort to the sleepless trapped inside. Sleepless who don't have the comfort of rest that a normal entombed marine would have.

Their rules can be found here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nightmare_Tabletop#Waking_Dead_Dreadnought

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:56:56 No.20065367 Report

Quoted By:

>>20063104

I thought this had died forever.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:57:44 No.20065376 Report

Quoted By: >>20065407 >>20065469 >>20065510 >>20065590

So, current changes I'd like to do...

Narthecium Glaive

S+1 AP3 Requires two hands

Alternatively the wielder may make 1 poisoned (2+) attack which does not ignore armour. If an enemy takes an unsaved wound from this special attack, they must pass a strength test. If this is failed the target suffers instant death as the massive injection of industrial-strength tranquilizers sends them into a coma and paralyzes all bodily functions.

Living Nightmare Psychic Power

2 - Irritation - The foes are distracted by the dancing images. The target is at -1I and will only move and assault 5" in the ensuing turn.

Chief Apothecary Eidelan

Shephard of the Dreamless: Eidelan has spent more time tending to the Sleepless than perhaps he should, for he finds them a fascinating and terrifying picture of what they all might become. Thus he has learned how to best use their fury. A unit of Sleepless accompanied by Eidelan gain +1 attack in rounds of combat after the first, provided the Sleepless charged in the first round.

(Basically he grants them limited, sustained rage. What do you guys thinK?)

The Wings of Rain, the Tank Commander, Spaced Armour

Remove them. Seriously, I bear them no real ill will, but they're really not necessary.

Redundant Systems: Return them

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:59:55 No.20065407 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065376

Whoops. Disregard that last part.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:06:47 No.20065469 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065376
I wish I knew more about TT balance to be of assistance. all I can really say is I agree with the three things you feel should be removed.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:07:05 No.20065472 Report

Quoted By:

Icelus pattern Tactical Dreadnought

WS5 BS5 S5 T6 W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+

Added rule: Delicate

Delicate: Icelus dreadnoughts are built for speed, flexibility and stealth, not durability. If an Icelus pattern takes an unsaved wound from a weapon of Strength 8 or greater, they immediately suffer instant death - the power of the shot was just too much.

(This is a little thing with 6th ed, where there are no longer X(Y) values. It does the same thing, essentially.)

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:10:29 No.20065510 Report

Quoted By: >>20065590

>>20065376

Limited, sustained rage sounds good. They are a pretty melee-specific unit, so shooty bonuses wouldn't be useful.

How about incorporating the new Sergeant rules in? Sergeants now count as ICs, so could sleepless be used as frontline melee fighters if joined by a regular unit w/ Sergeant?

Do Phobetor Dreadnoughts count as ICs to counter their Faltering Reality rule?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace IcelusDREAD_ModelWIP_2.png, 132KiB, 734x925

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:13:02 No.20065547 Report

Quoted By: >>20065590 >>20065633 >>20065662 >>20065665

Fa/tg/uy who designed the current Icelus dread here. A few things:

- I never saw anywhere in any of the threads that the Icelus was supposed to be closer to Terminator armor; only that is was based on one of the smaller Pre-Heresy dreadnought patterns.

- Am I the only one who despises the sensor spines on the back. God I fucking hate that idea. What porcupine dreads? Hell, in those preliminary sketches, it doesn't have spines, it has tentacle-like mechadendrites. I'm not fond of those either, but they're better than SPINES!

- I'd love it if we put Isidore Demeter in Tartarus Pattern armor. Duel-wielding jump pack terminator FTW!

Also, never stopped working on this:
<------------------------------------------------------------------------

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:16:28 No.20065590 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065376

I'm amazing, I just put up the unrevised version of the 2nd Living Nightmares result. It's somewhere above though.

>>20065510

...Wow. They SHOULD, but somehow in the rewrite we COMPLETELY FORGOT THEIR MAIN PURPOSE. I'll have to add that in while I make the Phobetor entry more formal in general. Thanks for picking that up.

>>20065547

Interpret it as you see fit, my man. You're a god amongst men in any case.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:20:50 No.20065633 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065547
The sketches came long after the descriptions, and have never been entirely accurate. It always had mostly spines plus some mechadendrites for practical applications.

The whole idea with the sensor spines is that the Icelus burrows down to obscure its silhouette, and the spines stick up gathering information. They do lots of recon missions for secundus. I think you might be the only one who hates the spines. They were always there.

But yes, the patter in a master-crafted version of a pre-heresy dreadnought. It is stripped down and made a fair bit smaller though, and fills a roll in the chapter comparable to terminators, so it gets called tactical dreadnought armour to remind us of that.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:23:17 No.20065662 Report

Quoted By: >>20068404

>>20065547
The name "tactical dreadnought armor" was picked mainly to stop the handful of people that kept complaining that the chapter had too many different types of dreadnoughts and "That's not what a dreadnought looks like!" The idea was to try to differentiate the Icelus pattern from the others due to its maneuverability, at least in name. It's not actually a form of terminator armor, but to me, it felt like it filled a role closer to assault terminators than to a normal dread.

I'm okay with either name

I was also never a fan of either the sensor spines or the mechadendrites, and your image is the one that I've continued to use when describing the Icelus.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace barn-owl.jpg, 340KiB, 550x364

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:23:46 No.20065665 Report

Quoted By: >>20065706 >>20065838

>>20065547

I feel as though the sensor spines could work if done alright. Perhaps not full on porcupine, and more like the sensor spines on Tau vehicles or Stealth Suits. That or they could be patterned like metal, skeletal owl wings (more like bat wings) to fit with Chapter symbolism.

I'm also a little keen on seeing what an Ash Raptor model would look like, and if fielded, what kind of stats they'd have: like a Fernisian Wolf pack, but much stranger looking, and probably less ferocious, but more agile.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:27:18 No.20065706 Report

Quoted By: >>20065757 >>20065813

>>20065665
This is what I've always pictured them as. Also highly flexible and poseable to aid with the Icelus masquerading its shape.

I dunno. I feel like they're kinda vital to the Secundus Icelus dreads. They'd be left off most Primus Icelus chassis entirely though. Dead weight.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:31:58 No.20065757 Report

Quoted By: >>20065833

>>20065706
Minor quip.
Technically there are no Primus Icelus dreads. When a primus company feels they need an icelus dread, it gets assigned to them from either another secundus company, or from the secundus company they're currently working alongside.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:36:39 No.20065813 Report

Quoted By: >>20065925

>>20065706

Okay, that's an idea I see potential in: an armored figure, wrapped in wings... Terrifying. Hell, if the armor's "Head" or sensor array could be made to resemble an owl, it would fit the symbolism of an owl stalking its prey silently.

Of course we're talking about 40k, so things are going to look ridiculous anyway, but its an idea I may incorporate in any models I may try and fiddle with along with the boxy sarcophagus.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:38:32 No.20065833 Report

Quoted By: >>20065915

>>20065757
Did all Icelus dreads officially become secundus? I thought they were technically Night Owl pilots given suits from the general armoury that just happened to be deployed with Secundus like 90% of the time.

So okay yeah. Either way I guess you're right. There are no Primus Icelus dreads. Painting them in Primus colours for a campaign fits the shock and awe theme though so people can still go wild there.

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:39:09 No.20065838 Report

Quoted By: >>20065883

>>20065665
Not sure what ash raptors are about. I could be persuaded to draw one if someone pointed me to their info.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:42:49 No.20065883 Report

Quoted By: >>20065993

>>20065838

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Icelus#Ash_Raptors

The drawfaggotry at the bottom depicts them as pointy-eared owls, but I prefer the smooth and mysterious Barn Owl look, myself. I seems to fit with the madness theme this whole concept has.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:45:49 No.20065915 Report

Quoted By: >>20066085

>>20065833
I think you got Nightkin confused with Night Owls. A Nightkin can become an Icelus, and then the Icelus can be moved to the Night Owls. Or a Night Owl who was originally from secundus can be entombed in an Icelus, but they would still be in Secundus colors.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:46:48 No.20065925 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065813
Waaaaaaay back in the day, I did a crappy pencil sketch of an Icelus that had a necron tomb spyder inspired head and a whole bunch of tau-vehicle like sensor quills on its back. In my head I imagined the pilot being able to manipulate the quills like fingers, holding them up straight with its body buried in the ground for recon work, twisting them into odd shapes to help disguise itself as a tree or whatever, or bending them out into a full spread to look wing-like and fearsome as the Icelus charges into battle. The robotic owl with a hundred eyes.

But that's the thing about the Icelus dreadnoughts. Each one is quite unique.

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:53:11 No.20065993 Report

Quoted By: >>20066102

>>20065883
>Accompanied by large, pointed ears, capable of hearing vibrations produced by prey burrowing beneath the surface...

Whomever wrote this doesn't know how owl hearing works.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 03:55:09 No.20066022 Report

Quoted By: >>20066094 >>20066102

Thing is, the native life on Icelus isn't inspired by owls. It's more inspired by avian creatures in general.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:00:11 No.20066085 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065915
Nah I wouldn't mix those two up. I just could've sworn I remembered differently and all pilots were technically honourary first company somehow. Like how, in a similarly unique exception, devastator dreadnoughts, while officially members of their assigned company, still have "first company" stamped sarcophagi (though not first company pilots). Just for a technical bureaucratic reminder where dreadnoughts really belong in a codex chapter.

Oh well. It's hard to keep some of the really old stuff straight in my mind as it has all evolved so much.

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:01:04 No.20066094 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066022
No bird has external ears. The ear-tufts on some owls' heads aren't actually ears. As far as I know, they're just decorative.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:01:29 No.20066102 Report

Quoted By:

>>20065993

Hence why I think the Barn Owl's dish of a head makes sense practically as well as symbolically. Take a look at pictures of Great Horned Owls vs. Barn Owls: the Great Horned seemingly stares at you angrily, while the Barn Owl's blacked out eyes seem to stare through you. It's much more subtle and unnerving, and seemingly more fitting to the theme of subtlety and madness.

>>20066022

True, but the owl plays a nice symbolic role to the Chapter. I imagine more traditional armor or Chaplain uniforms take on a Space Wolf kind of aesthetic with the bismuth and purple feathers of the native flora and fauna.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:12:20 No.20066224 Report

Quoted By: >>20066312 >>20066458

>True, but the owl plays a nice symbolic role to the Chapter. I imagine more traditional armor or Chaplain uniforms take on a Space Wolf kind of aesthetic with the bismuth and purple feathers of the native flora and fauna.

This sent shudders up my spine. The only place this really felt appropriate to me was on the marine's dreamcatchers, which is very personal and spiritual. Everywhere else immediately brings to mind all of the complaints against the whole pushing of the animal motif seen in space wolves.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:19:00 No.20066312 Report

Quoted By: >>20066332 >>20066363

>>20066224

Sorry, just an aesthetic thought. It doesn't really fit with the more Tactically based Nightmares, all this plumage and iridescence. I understand: it's best saved for the fluff with regards to the Dreamcatcher.

Now Icelian Commissars on the other hand... Nah, they'd go for the simple bird-mask plague doctor theme the rest go for. Nowhere the vibrant colors really fit on the tabletop, is there?

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:20:57 No.20066332 Report

Quoted By: >>20066363 >>20066407

>>20066312

Well, I'd say the PDF in general is pretty fabulous.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:23:04 No.20066363 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066312
>>20066332
Indeed. I don't think we've ever had a colored image of Icelusian Guardsmen,but they're actually wear the purple and gold of Icelus. The idea was modeled after the Swiss Guard.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:27:32 No.20066407 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066332

If some of those Icelian PDF/IG pictures were colored they might include Commissars wearing a shiny coat. It depends on if they go the utilitarian route, like Cadian, or the prideful parade armor route like the Vostroyan.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Nightmare Deathwatch.png, 863KiB, 1200x1000

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:31:55 No.20066458 Report

Quoted By: >>20066513 >>20066726

>>20066224
Yeah it has always been a fight to keep it subtle. It's kind of cyclical, coming up in conversations maybe once per thread.

That said I think feather patterns painted onto chaplain armour was one of the things the consensus said the owl motif was allowed onto back in the day. It's a fair bit more tasteful than owl men riding giant owls.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Technomancer_emperorsnightmare.jpg, 535KiB, 1400x1600

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:36:27 No.20066513 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066458
I do remember this. The Chaplains adorn themselves with the crossed strands of the dreamcatcher, with the feathering and animal skulls hanging from the strands as they would on a marine's personal dreamcatcher.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:43:22 No.20066605 Report

Quoted By: >>20066634 >>20066992

Also, I'm still waiting on my Emperor's Nightmare commission by Aerion the Faithful. I know he's ultra super busy with like a dozen commissions still waiting to be finished, but his work is always worth the wait.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:45:35 No.20066634 Report

Quoted By: >>20066698

>>20066605

Agreed. What's he making for you this time?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace EN_Symbol_New_Comparison.png, 109KiB, 1250x667

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:47:41 No.20066661 Report

Quoted By: >>20066684 >>20066749 >>20066755 >>20066791 >>20067142

I know we've had the chapter symbol set down for a while, but it's so damn complicated. I tried to make something that read better and looked more Raven Guard-ish a while back.

Figured it would fit with the the Nightmares respecting their parent chapter and all.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:49:18 No.20066684 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066661

I like that a lot better. The wings always seemed kind of weak to me, and it balances out the feet more.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:50:24 No.20066698 Report

Quoted By: >>20066749

>>20066634
A Primus Sleepless marine, helmet off, in the middle of a pitched battle, with Phobetor dread in the background.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 192875236458.png, 111KiB, 462x599

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:53:02 No.20066726 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066458

>Abissal Jaw and Guardian Exemplar

FUCK. YES.

I remember someone wrote some stories about a kill-team of the /tg/ chapters. The Guardian exemplar apothecary shitting on everyone else was the best part.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:54:40 No.20066749 Report

Quoted By: >>20066796

>>20066661

It's nice, VERY nice, but it DOES need outlines in order to not be completely lost on Secundus armour.

>>20066698

Classy.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:54:53 No.20066755 Report

Quoted By: >>20066796 >>20067873

>>20066661
When I look at the new symbol, the intricacy feels like something more appropriate for an IG regiment. As an example, look at the heraldry of any cadian regiment. Then look at almost all space marine chapter symbols. Chapters usually seemed to go with a more simplified design, over something overly intricate.

Don't get me wrong, I think the new symbol would work great for the Icelusian Guard, it just doesn't feel right to me for a chapter.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Plurimus Tersus.jpg, 151KiB, 741x1000

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:58:54 No.20066791 Report

Quoted By: >>20066852

>>20066661

I really like this, and it's not strange for a chapter to use a part of it's parent chapter's symbol (just look at the Dark Angels).

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Space_Wolves_Livery.jpg, 21KiB, 350x272

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 04:59:17 No.20066796 Report

Quoted By: >>20066852

>>20066749

Color reversal would work fine.

>>20066755

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you refer to intricacy. The design there is a flat graphic, that is completely connected. The older design has 4 different colors, and two elements completely separated from the body.

I think the newer one is slicker and more in line with the typically blockier, flatter Chapter symbols. Think Space Wolves.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:04:20 No.20066852 Report

Quoted By: >>20067873

>>20066791
Dark Angels also do everything to not let any of their successors out of their sight.

>>20066796
I guess it's just the wing design feels complex. Maybe I'm just too used to the old design, maybe it feels like it looks slightly like an aquila, which immediately makes me thing of IG. i see now that it's the Raven Guard wings though...still more a fan of the older design.

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:16:34 No.20066992 Report

Quoted By: >>20067004

>>20066605
Are there any piece of his of /tg/ chapters?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:17:43 No.20067004 Report

Quoted By:

>>20066992
Not that I know of. This would be the first.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:30:15 No.20067142 Report

Quoted By: >>20067413

>>20066661
That's glorious. The chapter symbol is nice but always felt a little too... I don't know... huggable?

Considering our fortress monastery is named Betten-Burgen I recognize that was kind of the point, but this is a cut above. And this can still be rounded on the edges and softened a bit when applied to models or banners or what have you. Plus there's the way more obvious raven guard influence which is awesome.

I'm totally going to make a pillow in the shape of this some day.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:40:41 No.20067246 Report

Quoted By: >>20067389

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:42:37 No.20067265 Report

Quoted By: >>20067389

> way more obvious raven guard influence
I think this is part of what bothers me. Are the EN really that close to the Raven Guard? Sharing iconography with a parent chapter always felt like something only the closest of chapters really did, like Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists, or the Ultramarines and the Praetors of Orpheus not necessarily for a chapter founded 8 millennia apart.

We see this with a lot of Dark Angel and Blood Angel successors because they convene fairly regularly with one another. But the Raven Guard were very much about independence and self-sufficiency.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:46:51 No.20067319 Report

Quoted By: >>20067389

Looking at it again...without the tail, it probably wouldn't bother me as much.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:52:05 No.20067389 Report

Quoted By:

>>20067246
>>20067265
>>20067319

Uh... I actually like the tail, but I agree on the wings and chapter relation. A change on the form of the wing in the new symbol would be good.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace OwlGlass3.png, 59KiB, 771x767

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:53:53 No.20067413 Report

Quoted By: >>20067452 >>20067585

>>20067142
How about something like this?

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 05:56:45 No.20067452 Report

Quoted By:

>>20067413

Nice!

Can you do a yellow on purple version?

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace aquila.jpg, 11KiB, 270x202

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:07:50 No.20067585 Report

Quoted By: >>20067777

>>20067413
Even still, all I see is an aquila. Can't seem to break it.

Again, perfect for IG.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 1332811023680.jpg, 28KiB, 600x300

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:13:45 No.20067651 Report

Quoted By: >>20067723

I MISSED YOU GUYS

I need to catch up with the thread.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:19:32 No.20067723 Report

Quoted By:

>>20067651

Good to see ya again. Catch up, then let's hear what you think.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace OwlGlass4.png, 45KiB, 659x729

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:23:39 No.20067777 Report

Quoted By: >>20067827 >>20067840 >>20067873

>>20067585
What If we tried with the original feathers?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:28:46 No.20067827 Report

Quoted By: >>20067843 >>20067880

>>20067777
That's...actually pretty nice.

I'm still very much against the tail, but those wings do feel better.

I guess at this point, there's just been so much done with the old symbol on it. It really is a massive change to chage a chapter's icon.

However, what I can see is the new symbol on a chapter/company banner, where the stylized look fits in nicely.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:30:00 No.20067840 Report

Quoted By:

>>20067777

It's so...fluffy.

Personally I'm having second thoughts about changing the symbol. After all, we already have a large amount of fanart with the present Owlglass on it. It's an instantly recognisable symbol.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:30:12 No.20067843 Report

Quoted By:

>>20067827
And at 2:30am, the spelling really starts to take a nosedive.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:33:11 No.20067873 Report

Quoted By: >>20067949

>>20066755
>>20066852

Dude, bird wings are EVERYWHERE in Imperial heraldry. If you're having trouble distinguishing, that sounds like a personal problem.

>>20067777

Well now you've lost the nice layered effect you had going where the sands lined up with the wings/tail. Also I just plain don't like the spear-tip feathers. They don't fit with how geometric everything else in the symbol is.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Owl.png, 467KiB, 444x691

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:33:37 No.20067880 Report

Quoted By: >>20068242

>>20067827
The original symbol is a huge mess. It's just not good design. It's a good draft. It just doesn't mesh, it doesn't feel cohesive.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:40:30 No.20067949 Report

Quoted By:

>>20067873
It's not the bird wings, it's bird wings with claws, which aside from the Raven Guard, whose symbol clearly has one head whereas ours appears symmetric, you don't see on space marine symbols. Instead, it makes the symmetry of the aquila.

Yes I know the aquila's not actually symmetric, but just in terms of shape.

Ahriman's Aide Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:41:31 No.20067961 Report

Quoted By: >>20068054

As the guy running the EoT campaign, and reading this thread, i really want to see the Emperor's Nightmare take to the field. carry on, with my blessing.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:49:36 No.20068042 Report

Quoted By: >>20068112

>The 3rd Company special vehicle things. are they really necessary?
Back when I wrote those in I felt that techmarines and SM vehicles, the Predator in particular, were kind of under appreciated and underused. Its been a couple releases and an edition since. I'm not familiar at all with the all the new stuff they added so I'm unsure if that is still true.

It was supposed to give the codex a couple of things. Fun ways to play vehicle heavy armies. Like lots of dreads led by a Master of the Forge. Or lots of tanks with a tank as an HQ. More durable vehicles using spaced armour and redundant crew. Basically adding more options to allow people to make lists that aren't generic. With all the new stuff, like those helicopter gunships I keep forgetting the name of and the changes to vehicle damage mechanics. The stuff in the codex might not be necessary anymore, and is certainly not balanced or viable.

It really depends on how serious you want the codex to be. From a fluff standpoint I want that kind of thing to be included. But from a mechanic standpoint I'm also okay with adding it as a themed supplement ala forge world.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:50:32 No.20068054 Report

Quoted By: >>20068112

>>20067961

Splendid, thank you muchly my fine fellow.

AND FOLKS, SINCE WE'RE DISCUSSING THE SYMBOL, I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE COLOUR SCHEME...

Psyche.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 06:55:26 No.20068112 Report

Quoted By: >>20068405

>>20068054
Thankyou...I was hoping to have a heart attack this year...

>>20068042
I guess I had always pushed one of the drawbacks of the chapter was the lack of vehicle supply, that even the command tanks wouldn't be anything too special because of the heavy heavy focus on dreadnought manufacturing. That if there was one major thing the chapter didn't do well, it was vehicles.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:06:52 No.20068242 Report

Quoted By: >>20068312

>>20067880
In retrospect I totally agree with the symbol being too huggable. But I don't see the point in changing it.

>The original symbol is a huge mess. It's just not good design. It's a good draft. It just doesn't mesh, it doesn't feel cohesive.
But it does! We call it an Owlglass for a reason. The symbol is 33% Owl, 33% Hourglass, 33% cleverly hidden Infinity symbol. When taken as a whole you end up with an icon that is not an Owl, not an Hourglass and 100% UNIQUE.

I really like some of your alternate designs but they kind of miss the point a little. The Nightmares are all about subtlety and those designs have a little too much bird in them. There are also a couple mechanical problems. The original symbol is nice and round and fits neatly into a square. When you make the wings spread out wide or add the tail, the overall size of the symbol becomes a lot bigger and you would have to draw it smaller on things like shoulderpads.

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:13:54 No.20068312 Report

Quoted By: >>20068411 >>20068412 >>20068424

>>20068242

>We call it an Owlglass for a reason. The symbol is 33% Owl, 33% Hourglass, 33% cleverly hidden Infinity symbol. When taken as a whole you end up with an icon that is not an Owl, not an Hourglass and 100% UNIQUE.

I'm talking visually, not conceptually. Those floating wings bug the FUCK outta me.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:15:08 No.20068321 Report

Quoted By: >>20068412

Time for bed. See you lot in the morning.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:26:40 No.20068404 Report

Quoted By: >>20068439 >>20068464

>>20065662
>"tactical dreadnought armor"

Holy shit, have you guys seriously been using this term for Icelus Dreads? And no one told you that it's the official name of Terminator armor?

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:26:42 No.20068405 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068112
Well I always thought of it in a different way. The Nightmares are a variant chapter, which means they respect the Codex even if they don't follow it to the letter. Vehicles like tanks and APCs are written into the Codex for good reason. Sometimes an armoured vehicle is what you need to get the job done. This is why I made vehicular assault 3rd companies forte. You can't drop pod assault a fortress. Sometimes you need a vindicator or two to knock on the door.

The rest of the chapter does use vehicles too. But in different ways. Take 6th company for instance. They are all about being stealthy and being unseen and all that. And you know what a Land Raider has that a lot of enemies don't? Night vision.

If the Nightmares have a disadvantage, it's lack of staying power. If you start an assault with 70 men, you can only press the attack for so many days before they will start to fall asleep. This is why the chapter embraces stealth and shock and awe tactics. Hard shattering assaults never last long one way or another. And if a brother happens to fall asleep during a night operation, well... you never knew he was there anyway.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:27:32 No.20068411 Report

Quoted By: >>20068449

Last Thing

>>20068312
Okay, this I can understand. And looking at other chapters, you're right, most do have the wings directly connected to the body, but not all of them. The Blood Angels wings are separate from the body.

I think the biggest difference is all of the other chapters with wings have the wings spread apart, whereas ours are folded back. I'm not sure how you could attach the wings to the body, and still portray them as folded back.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:27:38 No.20068412 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068321

Later.

>>20068312

I know what you mean, they're a little awkward-looking in the end.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:29:12 No.20068424 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068312
Granted they DO look rather too much like ink blotches. But I think attaching them isn't the answer. The hourglass needs to stand alone, otherwise you end up with something that looks too much like a bird with holes in it.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:32:03 No.20068439 Report

Quoted By: >>20068464

>>20068404
We know that. Would you prefer going back to calling it dreadnought armor and having every other mention of them be swamped with people complaining that they're too weak and too quick to be dreadnoughts? Or that the chapter is too overpowered because they have five different kinds of dreadnoughts? We changed it for a reason, because it fills the role of terminator armor a lot better than it fills the role of a dreadnought.

Okay, going to bed for real now.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:33:14 No.20068449 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068411
Yeah. When I think about it ALL of the other chapter symbols that have birds in them have the wings spread. Either in an "attack" sort of position or just in flight. What we are trying to do is represent an Owl just chilling on a perch with his wings folded. Let me do a little research.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:35:16 No.20068464 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068404

Not really, we haven't been using "armour". They're tactical dreadnoughts. The name bridges the gap between dreadnought and terminator as
>>20068439 said.

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:49:26 No.20068562 Report

Quoted By: >>20068607

Sorry to railroad the thread, guys. I'm just very visual, and it gets the better of me.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 07:58:59 No.20068607 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068562
Nonesense! Part of being a Nightmare is obsessive attention to detail! Just try not to lose any sleep over it. Heh.

Comfy if you are up for it try something like this. Because of the sizing issue I mentioned earlier we want to keep a square or round shape.You mentioned the floating wings being a turnoff and I agree. One thing you could try is adding a little wedge between the wings and the circles. This gives it a more attached feeling and also accentuates the curve of the hourglass.

Since they DO look too much like blotches you could try adding feathers. The lower portion of owl wings is all long and straight feathers and the upper portions are all small and curved. Just enter "owl tail" into a google image search and you should see the same reference pics I got.

Part of the reason why all of the new designs put me off is that you blanked out the original colouring. Try drawing in the new wings with the same colours and borders as the hourglass and see how it goes.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Banner2.png, 114KiB, 1270x783

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 08:00:22 No.20068618 Report

Quoted By: >>20068643 >>20068728

oops

ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 08:05:26 No.20068643 Report

Quoted By: >>20068705 >>20068728

>>20068618
Part of the reason I've been working on this is so that it can be use as a monochrome design.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 08:16:21 No.20068705 Report

Quoted By:

>>20068643
Hmm... that explains a lot. What would you need a monochromed version for?

Do you think it would be possible to monochrome it but still retain the borders? The borders are important because they give the icon a lot of its definition.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 08:19:19 No.20068728 Report

Quoted By: >>20068767

>>20068643
>>20068618

How can we simplify the symbol? What does it look like without the wings? Or the wings more folded like parentheses? Instead of a flying symbol, we have one at rest?

It's already pretty simple. The redesign looks like it'd be a great banner or ornamental symbol sculpted onto mastercrafted armor, but a little much for the baseline marine.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 08:25:11 No.20068767 Report

Quoted By: >>20068846

>>20068728
That's right actually. Not ALL of the chapter symbols need to look the same. Just look at the Blood Angels and Ultramarines. They have their chapter symbols all over everything from sword hilts to belt buckles.

The hourglass is really the key. You can remove the wings and the symbol would still be recognizable.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 08:39:05 No.20068846 Report

Quoted By: >>20069083 >>20070382

>>20068767

The hourglass with the sand and the Owl Cowl/Crown on top. Maybe the crescent moon feet. That would work as a good, simple design. As for armor, shoulder pads and chest pieces can have the wings sculpted on, and have the symbol take on an extra dimension. We could also have individual Company markings: a Dream Catcher for one, the simplified hourglass on another, the full symbol on the primaries...

As for the formal symbol, put it on anything with enough space: a Rhino panel, a Chapter banner, the flat plating of a Dreadnought.

I also think that the hourglass should be made more prominent. I mentioned before about the owl symbol and Ash Raptors and stuff, but we should avoid going OWL OWL OWL like the Space Wolves have WOLF WOLF WOLF. The owl's a nice, useful and meaningful symbol (and also cool), but it's not the focus of the Chapter.

Anyway, I need to get some sleep. I hope this discussion can be continued tomorrow. To Sleep, Perchance to Dream!

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 09:14:17 No.20069083 Report

Quoted By: >>20070382

>>20068846
That's another thing we worked REALLY hard to avoid. IIRC the only bird references in the chapter are:

- The 3rd companies command tank. It has bird "stylings" in the armour plating because it had to be rebuilt from scratch at one point and the techmarines got artistic.
- Some of the chaplains wear bird skull helmets instead of human skull helmets.
- The chapter icon of course.
- One of the librarians has a psyber-owl.
- The Chapter's Terminator Honour Guard (all five of them) Have black armour with gold trim. The armour has a feather pattern on it, but its painted grey on black and meant to be extremely subtle.

That's it really. I can only see one more addition to make. Terminator helmets have this bulldog look to them. I think it would be kind of neat If the Honour guards could have Owl shaped helmets instead. Its halfway there, all you need to do is make the helmet rounded.

The ALL BIRDS ALL THE TIME thing is an Icelus thing. The people of the chapters homeworld have bird iconography everywhere for a variety of reasons. Since the marines come from those same people a little of this carries over to the chapter. We also rolled Honour The Ancients when creating the chapter which means they have great respect for veterans and chapter heroes, including those from the Raven Guard.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 09:47:39 No.20069293 Report

Quoted By:

>>20064318
You can read the full story here in the first thread. We have all the discussions listed on the wiki page.
>http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13780616/

Basically the story goes... One day Anon showed up with a copy of Rites of Battle which has rules for rolling up custom chapters to use in Deathwatch. It started out pretty standard fare.

> Standing force
> Raven Guard successor
> Pure geneseed

And then we rolled up chapter demeaner and /tg/ dice diced and gave us THREE rolls of 6 in a row on d10s. This gave us triple See But Do Not Be Seen which fits their parent chapter to a T as the Raven Guard are stealthy marines. Afterwards we rolled for mutations which gave us the narcolepsy. And then we rolled... Pride In The Colours. As one Anon put it:

>THIS IS THE WORST STEALTHY CHAPTER EVER
>THEY LOVE COLOUR AND THEY CAN'T STAY AWAKE

And right after that we rolled for the chapter's favoured tactics and came up with Shock And Awe which makes even LESS sense.

>"Any brother that is awake! ON ME! RIPANDTEAR RIPANDTEAR BOMBTHEMALLTOHELL KILL!PURGE!BURN! alright...nap time...

The rest as they say is history. I think the reason things turned out so awesome is because the rolls made so little sense. If it was just a generic melee assault chapter it wouldn't have been so interesting. But we had to be so creative to make sense of it all that we came up with some truly unique ideas.

Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw Sat 28 Jul 2012 10:37:30 No.20069552 Report

Quoted By: >>20069952

>Discussion to replace the emblem this late into development with a far more intricate version.

Gods damn guys, almost gave me a heart attack there.

I'm going to agree that the sharp wings-spread emblem would be perfect for the Guard regiments, and now that we have allies rules, even moreso.

But the original design was meant to be something that could fairly easily be painted onto the small canvas that are pauldrons. Also the things about subtly and balance in themes.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace owl helmet.jpg, 195KiB, 600x450

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 11:02:43 No.20069742 Report

Quoted By:

saw sometihng about owl terminator helmets. here is a start. im out.

-features are significantly rouded, with eyes perhaps being circles instead of the slits. with a second ring of circles around them to complete the look.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Banner5.png, 77KiB, 930x494

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 11:25:02 No.20069952 Report

Quoted By: >>20069980 >>20070382

>>20069552
In a nutshell that's really why the logo is so simple. It was originally meant to be a shoulder badge and to go onto the Chapter Banner. Flat surfaces basically. It would be FAR more complex and ornate if we had started with a 3d sculpture and transitioned to a 2d version. There is really no reason why we can't have other versions with tails and spread wings. They would simply be for things OTHER than badges and banners. An Owlglass with wings could be used to make special Aquila armour with the owl replacing the double headed eagle for instance.

I was playing around in Paint and came up with this. Its a small modification that makes the wings seem less "floaty". The logo still looks pretty good when you reduce it to line art. I can see how making it monochrome is really hard though.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 11:27:55 No.20069980 Report

Quoted By:

>>20069952
That looks good, reducing the distance between the hourglass and the wings works wonders

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 1305259176587.jpg, 52KiB, 382x287

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 11:52:02 No.20070169 Report

Quoted By: >>20070256

This is the picture that made me think of the owl helmets. Like I said before its halfway there. You wouldn't need to modify much.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace owlglass_wing_tail.png, 71KiB, 771x767

Kamaluq the Wiki Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:02:59 No.20070227 Report

Quoted By: >>20075826

I wake up and there's a Nightmare thread. Great! Couple of things I want to chime in on.

- Being the guy who wrote the original Gavroche story: yeah, that was a massive shout-out to the "Stummer + Cameleoline Net + Dreadnought" hilarity that went round the board when we went through RoB. This was long before anyone ever thought of Icelus pattern dreads, but if you go back to the first few threads, you'll see they sort of grew out of that. Note how Gavroche isn't even in an Icelus in the story, just a normal Dread. (He is probably too old-fashioned to be having with this kind of new stuff, anyway. NOT ENOUGH STOMPY.)

- The symbol: I would agree that the wings could be improved, and the addition of a tail in larger imagery makes sense. BA symbolism switches between simply the teardrop, the teardrop with winglets, and the teardrop with massive wings, depending on placement, rank, and occasion. No reason why that wouldn't be the same in the Emperor's Nightmare. See pic for a quick hack (with apologies to Comfy): detaching the wings and tail works wonders for recognizing the owlglass as the centerpeice, rather than simply an intricate design element. The tailless symbol is probably the most widespread in the chapter, though.

- Honor Guard owl helmets: love the idea, would love to see an example though to make sure we're not rushing headlong into OWL LORD OWLY MCOWLSON IN OWL ARMOR territory. Generally I'd say the owl imagery is more prevalent among the Sleepless, who have way too much time on their hands for such intricacies, and the analogy of the unsleeping watcher-predator makes sense.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:07:00 No.20070256 Report

Quoted By:

>>20070169

Give me a minute, I'm going to see if I can draw something decent.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:20:26 No.20070382 Report

Quoted By: >>20070616

>>20068846
We had discussed company markings a long time ago. The reason we went without them is that normally, the chapter works in teams of two companies, one primus and one secundus. Since the only other company will have a drastically different paint scheme, we didn't feel company marks were necessary. That said, if you look at the organizational chart, each company has a title. At one point we were working on company banners based on those titles.

>>20069083
The thing with changing the honor guard is that those 5 suits were the ones directly from the Raven Guard, hence the feather etchings. Changing the helmet feels way too much considering they already have a paint scheme completely different from anyone else in the chapter.

I also still think we should remove the 3rd company tank as a unit. He's really not that special of a guy to warrant it honestly.

>>20069952
I would consider that an improvement. However, again, simply because we've used the old one for so long, I don't feel comfortable changing it. I realize it's a very minor change that does improve the symbol, but it's still a change of the chapter symbol and that still doesn't sit right with me.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace owlenator.png, 71KiB, 376x433

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:35:22 No.20070513 Report

Quoted By: >>20070545 >>20070673 >>20070773

Now the thing is that the shape of a terminator's helmet and an owl's head don't look that much alike. You'd have better luck with either a regular space marine helmet or a grey knight helmet.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:38:49 No.20070545 Report

Quoted By: >>20070559

>>20070513
It just feels like too much. The chapter has so few terminators, and the honor guard aren't even the same color as the others. They don't need to make them any more special to stand out.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:40:37 No.20070559 Report

Quoted By: >>20070591

>>20070545

Still, it was fun to draw.

I hate drawing on tablet tho.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:44:43 No.20070591 Report

Quoted By: >>20070773

>>20070559
Well it certainly looks cool. It's just feels unnecessary.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:47:24 No.20070616 Report

Quoted By:

>>20070382
There are 4 companies in each battlegroup plus the veterans company and the scouts. It would be a little strange if each one didn't have its own personality. But we sort of already gave them one in that each one prefers specific tactics.

Ironically the 3rd company captain is actually the one with the most personality so far. I have some backstory about him which is more than I can say for the other characters. He has a twin brother who is nameless because he became a Sleepless techmarine. His brother is fairly lucid but spends a lot of his time creating arms and armour as a focus. Every time the captain returns to Icelus he thinks up some kind of artifice related task for him. He once challenged his brother to a hammer forging contest for instance which is partly the reason he holds that title. The command tank is also a result of this, having been built from scratch out of the remains of two predator tanks destroyed by railguns.

His greatest fear (as far as a marine can be afraid about something) is that one day he will return from campaign and his brother will no longer recognize him.

As for the logo. Its honestly such a small change that it wouldn't be *that* hard just to retrofit it into the art. Its not like we have a ton of it. Not having much artistic talent myself its not a huge issue to me.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 12:54:14 No.20070673 Report

Quoted By: >>20070881

>>20070513
chapter relics! a helmet frequently played with and modified to pass the time amongst the sleepless. It is a masterpiece to be sure, but there is something that seems incomplete about it. Forever do the sleepless toil away, trying to erase that subtle imperfection as they wait for the last vestiges of their sanity to flee. Eventually another sleepless will find it and pick up the work again. There may even be an entire set of armor like this.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Great-Horned-Owl-Landing-81.gif, 238KiB, 654x504

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 13:09:47 No.20070773 Report

Quoted By: >>20070867 >>20070881

>>20070513
Cool helmet! The shape isn't a huge issue. Grey Knight terminator helmets are not elongated either. Looks just like I imagined it. Here is a pic of a real owl for comparison.

>>20070591
The way I understand it, Honour Guards are supposed to personify all of the chapters greatest heroes. In a way they could also be considered the embodiment of the Chapter as a whole. That's why there are only 5 of them and very few chapters have more than that.

The Blood Angels and Space Wolves take the animal/angel trappings to an extreme. But if you cut out everything like the wolf mounts and the Sanguinor EXCEPT for the honour guard of each chapter. Wouldn't it be a lot better? Certainly more tasteful at least.

IIRC the idea was that two of the armour suits actually were gifted to the Nightmares by the Ravens back at the chapters founding. So in a way the honour guards represent the greatest heroes of both the Nightmares and Ravens. The Veterans company is called the Night Owls. And the Honour Guards are some of the the greatest and wisest birds in the chapter. I think we can allow them to get away with the bird motif. (hence the feathers).

Instead of giving them ALL owl helmets we can compromise. We can say that the two suits from the Ravens actually came with the Owl helmets. And no one in the chapter would dream of changing them. The helmets (and the suits for that matter) are some of the chapters "holiest" of relics, on par with Randolphus's armour from when he was a marine.

Honour the Ancestors and all that.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 13:23:57 No.20070867 Report

Quoted By: >>20071165

>>20070773
But that's the thing. We're not cutting everything else out. We have a ton of other stuff that make us unique, from the Nightkin to the Sleepless, to the Icelus pattern. Making the honor guard look different feels like too much.
The problem with making them from the Raven Guard is I can't picture the Raven Guard actually using something like that.

Here's my counter-compromise. Have it as a one off relic that the chapter has that's used by one of the Primus company terminator sergeants. What makes the honor guard special is their colors, and as we know, the chapter greatly cares about the colors one displays. What makes a single individual special can be a lot of things, and possession of a special helmet doesn't feel as jarring.

Also, do you happen to have Honour the Chapter? It's got an amazing collection of chapter relics for even relatively obscure chapters.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 13:25:58 No.20070881 Report

Quoted By:

>>20070773
In fact now that I think about it that makes perfect sense. Each of the suits came with a mastercrafted owl helmet and lightning claws. Raven Guards love lightning claws right? (and it would be really weird for owls to be carrying hammers anyhow)

>>20070673
Given all the know about them it would make sense for some of the sleepless to be obsessed with perfection and seek it out in all sorts of art forms. I think one of the stories mentions platinum and gold coins with the chapter symbol on them, used to pay up a bet. None of the techmarines would ever have the time to make something like this. But it makes perfect sense for the Sleepless to do something like craft a tiny, intricately and perfectly detailed object. By hand of course because they are crazy like that.

This is matched by some of the fluff we made. The Sleepless tend to engrave their armour with fractal designs that get more and more complicated as time goes on. When they die in battle the armour returns to the chapter and is repaired so that a new marine can use it. But there is part of Betten Burgen that is filled with statues of Sleepless marines. For every one that falls in battle, all of the other Sleepless get together and carve a statue of him accurate down to the last detail. Literally PERFECT lifelike statues of them and their armour.

Considering that the Sleepless also carved out that part of the fortress its quite the mindfuck to spend time there. With every fallen marine a new alcove or chamber is dug. Every surface is carved and the whole place feels kind of like one of those Escher paintings where you can't tell which direction is up.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:03:57 No.20071165 Report

Quoted By: >>20071248

>>20070867
Well the Raven Guard would have Terminator armour. Maybe not the 100 suits needed to outfit a company. But they ARE a first founding chapter after all and did have significantly more than 100 suits at one point in time. Even if they don't normally use them for the whole stealth thing. That doesn't mean they wouldn't keep a couple in the armoury for use whenever they come across a space hulk.

I still think the Honour Guard would be the best place to put them.They are the only marines who can carry the actual chapter banner into battle. So it makes sense for them to also be the only ones to embody the chapter symbol in such an obvious way.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:14:55 No.20071248 Report

Quoted By: >>20071269 >>20071383

>>20071165
Yes, I know that Raven Guard would have extra terminator armor and that some of them were given to the EN. What I mean is those terminators wouldn't be different from any other terminator aside from the feather etchings.

But that's the thing, the chapter symbol isn't an owl, it's the owlglass. The animal itself really isn't a prominent part of the chapter. For me, it really is one bird helm too many.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:17:09 No.20071269 Report

Quoted By: >>20071366

>>20071248

I could design something more appropriate if you have an idea. I'm bored as hell and I need some practice.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:17:10 No.20071270 Report

Quoted By: >>20071366

it has been a while since I was in these threads; are they still having issues with that one daemon of Tzeentch? Or rather the chapter and this one daemon wjho hunted them in their sleep and so on

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:26:29 No.20071361 Report

Quoted By:

Personally I liked the idea of a relic terminator helmet used by one of the primus sergeants. The terminator sergeants don't get enough love.

It keeps the idea of an owl terminator helmet, which is cool, without over-saturating the owl theme in the core chapter formation, which is boring.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:27:00 No.20071366 Report

Quoted By: >>20071468

>>20071270
Khaliman? He won't be a problem for a long time. His followers, on the other hand, have a tendency of causing problems by jumping in and out of the dreamscapes.

>>20071269
Hmm...well you do draw a good helm. I guess to me, the use of Corvus armor was enough of a bird symbol for the chapter.
Though if you feel up to it, one unit I've been wondering about is the Phobetor dread. What exactly does a narthecium glaive look like on a dread?

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:28:59 No.20071383 Report

Quoted By: >>20071443

>>20071248
Hmm, you know... Maybe I'm overthinking this. You know the part of the chapter symbol on top of the hourclass? The crest that forms both the horns and the beak? Why not put that on the helmets of the Honour Guard? And then you can add curved talons sculpted into their boots.

Cause really when you think about it, its an owlglass. Not an owl. The crest and the claws are what make it an owlglass instead of just an hourglass.

This way the Honour Guard would have "horns and a beak", claws and feathers. Its about as bird symbolic as you can get without ACTUALLY making them a bird. And the symbolism is what we want right?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:34:38 No.20071443 Report

Quoted By: >>20071548

>>20071383
Now this, I can get behind. Just a simple etching on the helm and boots as they appear on the chapter symbol.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:36:33 No.20071468 Report

Quoted By: >>20071511

>>20071366
Well one correction we made early on is that Phobetors don't use gun-arms. And instead of the usual chunky dreadnought fists they have actual hands with fingers. Not perfectly human like, and they can still be used to crush and smash stuff. But the dexterity allows them to manipulate small objects and be better medics.

(I just had a funny mental image of a GIANT phobetor dread bandaging a little girls arm.)

So for the glaives. The apothercary version is a two handed polearm. And the phobetor version could be a kind of extendable hidden blade thing that fits under each hand. Kind of like Ezio's blades from Assassins Creed.

Its not too different from the regular narthecium gauntlets that apothecaries carry. A blade for cutting through armour, and all sorts of doohickies like needles and vials of some medicine or other. Just scaled up to fit a dreadnoughts hand. And of course it needs to be retractable because otherwise it would get in the way when the hands are doing stuff.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:40:14 No.20071502 Report

Quoted By:

>And instead of the usual chunky dreadnought fists they have actual hands with fingers

I don't remember this at all. In fact, I thought the phobetor had more of a mancatcher claw.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:41:32 No.20071511 Report

Quoted By: >>20071535

>>20071468

Well, this is something I can work with. Quick question however: what pattern dreadnought are we talking?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:42:25 No.20071521 Report

Quoted By: >>20071593

>And instead of the usual chunky dreadnought fists they have actual hands with fingers

I don't remember this at all. In fact, I thought the phobetor had more of a mancatcher claw.

I didn't think the Phobetors actually functioned as normal field medics. They were there to guide the Sleepless and to capture them and tranq them if they get out of line, and to collect their geneseed when they fall.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:43:53 No.20071535 Report

Quoted By: >>20071584

>>20071511
Mk IV or V is fine. The standard and the venerable ones.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:46:03 No.20071548 Report

Quoted By: >>20071607

>>20071443
There is enough room on the terminator helmet to paint in the triangle shape onto the helmets surface. And for the boots you could paint the crescent onto the "toe" portion.

Of course, the colour scheme for the honour guard already is black and gold. (or obsidian and gold if you want to be technical, not flat black). Since all of the armour trip is gold, it would be really easy just to sculpt those bits into the armour. The crest wouldn't need to be ridiculously huge like something you would see on a gundam.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:46:15 No.20071550 Report

Quoted By: >>20071607

I really like the new symbol, and I don't think it should necessarily replace the old owlglass. But diversity in chapter iconogrphy is a good thing, I think. The new symbol could go on vehicles, for example, or incorporated into the Chapter HQ building if someone were to draw or model it.

Also, I prefer aesthetic differences (bird helmets and such) to special rules and additional units. I don't think it's fair to oppose a couple owl-shaped terminator helmets on the grounds of "we already have a lot of special units and characters". I'd rather the chapter differentiated itself aesthetically than in crunch - I'm not going to play more than a couple friendly games with the special rules, in most cases if I build a Nightmares army it will be played as counts-as BA or vanilla marines in tourneys.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:46:50 No.20071554 Report

Quoted By: >>20071579 >>20071599 >>20071607

Wait, so now they have allies? Who are they allied with, all I can recall is that they had psyker and mechanus support.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:51:22 No.20071579 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071554
We have the psykana, our own pdf, some pals in the mechanicus and a fair number of Adepta Sororitas who look out for the general population. Any of these could be represented on the tabletop I guess.

We also have working relationships with the other /tg/ chapters and of course the Raven Guard.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:51:51 No.20071584 Report

Quoted By: >>20071655

>>20071535

Alright. And the glaive is technically just a weaponized syringe on a stick?

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:52:37 No.20071591 Report

Quoted By:

See, this sort of stuff is the reason why I love /tg/
We really get shit done
On occasion
From time to time

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:52:51 No.20071593 Report

Quoted By: >>20071692

>>20071521
Well the idea of a Phobetor is an Apothecary Dreadnought. So it can do everything a regular apothecary can. The original draft by SC Guy had them with the typical CCW and assault cannon. I thought that was a little odd so I suggested we change that to dual CCWs and replace the fists with hands. The hands could be like the one on the venerable dreadnought with 3 fingers and 2 thumbs. The point is they do have fingers so they can manipulate stuff. Unlock other dreadnoughts which have claws or stubby wrecking fists.

IIRC there are only two Phobetors in the chapter and they ONLY deploy alongside the Sleepless. But sadly its not at all unrealistic to say the Sleepless might all die on the field... And then you have a shepherd without his flock so to speak. At that point you have an extra Apothecary who happens to be a dreadnought and he wouldn't sit idle. He would tag along with the regular forces and help out wherever he can.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:54:09 No.20071599 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071554

I didn't see anything about allies ITT... I mean, the Nightmares are a foundling chapter of the Raven Guard, if that's what you're referring to, and they have pretty good ties with the mother chapter.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:55:04 No.20071607 Report

Quoted By: >>20071743

>>20071548
Oh, I wasn't thinking of a physical crest that stood up. I was literally thinking of carving it into the forehead of the helm in gold. Having it sticking out would look really strange.

>>20071550
It has nothing to do with rules or number of characters It's the fact that the symbolism isn't meaningful and that the owl isn't a focus of the chapter. It's also that we don't need another thing to differentiate our units from other chapters.

>>20071554
What do you mean by allies? You mean from that allies matrix? We're pretty much the same as codex marines.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:55:51 No.20071614 Report

Quoted By: >>20071629 >>20071743

these guys are lame unlike the angry marines and the other /tg/ chapters.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:56:59 No.20071629 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071614
Fuck off

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 14:59:31 No.20071655 Report

Quoted By: >>20071738

>>20071584
A syringe on a stick attached to a power weapon yeah. It has more in common with a cattle prod than anything else. I guess the techmarines figured that since it was so big you wouldn't be able to carry that AND a sword they weaponized it to compensate.

It really is a nasty weapon when you think about it. Able to punch through any armour and its loaded with MASSIVE doses of astartes medicine. (which means deadly poison to anyone else).

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:03:55 No.20071692 Report

Quoted By: >>20071859

>>20071593
Now you're just remembering things incorrectly. First, there are 6 phobetor dreads in the chapter, they're just used in pairs on the battlefield. Second, not all Sleepless are sent out at the same time. Only enough for the two dreads to handle. Third, other squads have their own apothecaries. If a phobetor is without sleepless, he can join them and fight, but he wouldn't be performing any actual medical procedures.

As for the hands, now that you say that it's the same one on the Venerable Dread, I'm okay with it, since technically most dreads have access to that, they just don't use it. I thought you literally meant something as dextrous as a human hand. We really only need something that can grab a Sleepless and hold it long enough, without killing it, until it can be injected.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:09:59 No.20071738 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071655

Alright. Well, I've got some good sketches to build on now. To work.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:10:34 No.20071743 Report

Quoted By: >>20071770 >>20071976

>>20071614
And not a single fuck was given that day.

>>20071607
I think we mean the same thing. It wouldn't be like big horns that stick up and out. Just a raised and gilded pattern on top of the helmet.

And you are right. The chapter is the Emperor's NIGHTMARES. Not owls or ravens, nightmares. The hourglass represents sleep and hence, the Nightmare aspect of the chapter. So its the hourglass symbol that should appear everywhere. (and it does). The bird motif is just a nod to the chapters origins, both its founding chapter and homeworld.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:11:35 No.20071749 Report

Quoted By: >>20071770 >>20071771

I'm a huge nigger neckbeard faggot

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:14:32 No.20071770 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071749
Yeah, we are thinking of the same thing with the crest.

>>20071743
Tripstealing. Haven't seen that in awhile.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 00000000131.gif, 873KiB, 200x200

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:14:42 No.20071771 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071749
wow you are such a manchild

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:15:53 No.20071783 Report

Quoted By:

I'm a huge faggot too

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:26:34 No.20071859 Report

Quoted By: >>20072038 >>20072050

>>20071692
Yeah I am misremembering. Gosh its been so long since we worked on this. Feels good to be back.

I don't think there is anything strange about Phobetors about doing medic stuff. The whole point of them being Dreadnoughts in the first place is that interacting with the Sleepless is dangerous for a regular apothecary, even with power armour. Dreadnoughts are used because they stand a MUCH better chance to catch and trank a sleepless if he goes nuts. And they are FAR more likely to go crazy on the battlefield.

But even off the battlefield (or just away from the fighting) the danger is still there. A sleepless could go berserk even if you are just bandaging his hand. So of course the dreadnought would be able to do everything, even mundane medical stuff like this. In fact a single Phobetor could carry FAR more medical supplies than a single marine, even with a forklift! So there is that.

As for the dexterity. You would be surprised how much fine control you have in heavy machinery today. I've seen videos of people using giant crushing claws that are normally used to smash concrete and cut I-beams like breadsticks to do thing like pick up an egg without cracking it. So even if Phobetor hands are not exactly human sized and shaped, if it has fingers it can do all sorts of fine manipulation.

That's why I found the mental image so funny. Dr. BIG MCLARGEHUGE using his gigantic hands to do such a fine task as bandage someone's arm.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:41:30 No.20071976 Report

Quoted By: >>20072050 >>20072528

Does someone more technically literate than I am feel like updating the wiki gallery a bit? There are a number of pictures in this thread that aren't preserved there yet, and a fair bit of interesting OC as well. Even if the new chapter symbols aren't universally adopted I'd like to see them preserved asap. Also I actually got off my lazy butt and bothered fixing the mountains around Secundus a while back so the map is complete (I like the other tiny inaccuracies, they give it character) and it can go up on the Icelus planet page unless someone else wants to try their hand at adding more to it first.

>>20071743
>The chapter is the Emperor's NIGHTMARES. Not owls or ravens, nightmares.
Amen to that.

Though I have had more than one owl-inspired nightmare in my day. Mothman style headless winged bodies with glowing eyes on their chests peering in through my darkened window... gah.

The chapter's primary symbolism is still sleep and dream related and it's good to re-emphasize the hourglass, the oeneiric sand, the passage of time and honouring of the past and their ancestors, the day/night dichotomy of the chapter and all that. The hourglass, and the owlglass, really does represent the entire chapter very well.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace EVEN IN DEATH I STILL PRACTICE M (...).png, 425KiB, 852x1069

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:47:19 No.20072024 Report

Quoted By: >>20072101 >>20072528

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:48:53 No.20072038 Report

Quoted By: >>20072677

>>20071859
Didn't we have a fluff tidbit about all our dreads having at least one or two coiled up mechadendrites for fine motor work? I've always thought of them as such. Given how much technology Nightmares interact with on a daily basis MIUs aren't going to cover everything and every member of the Nightmares is expected to be somewhat capable of doing any of his brothers' tasks. I always figured the techmarines would spend an extra hour or two bolting on a mechadendrite so the dreadnoughts could do other tasks if necessary too.

The best examples of this being recon Icelus dreads that sneak into enemy bases and do espionage stuff. The other good example being phobetors. Though yeah, you can get some shocking levels of fine motor control from big equipment too.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:49:25 No.20072041 Report

Quoted By: >>20072072

Looking at the Icelus page, I remember there used to be a lot of information about the planet and important people on it in the previous threads. There was information on the planetary governor, some notable Inquisitors and other people, rail guild descriptions, important locations other than the hives, but none of it is on the wiki page. Is there another page with all that on that I'm missing? Or has it been lost?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:50:27 No.20072050 Report

Quoted By:

>>20071859
I suppose so. Off the battlefield, I figured they would be under a relatively light sedative (something that would send a human into a coma for 6 months) to help take the edge off and allow normal apothecaries to tend to them.
It does seem a little odd that you almost never actually see apothecaries of any type performing normal medical treatments. I think everything short of an amputation, a marine's body could heal on its own.

>>20071976
I'll take care of updating the wiki, if it isn't updated by the time I type this. Thanks again for the fantastic map of Icelus. It's certainly the centerpiece of our information for the planet.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:52:37 No.20072072 Report

Quoted By: >>20072319

>>20072041
I don't think any of that made it on to the wiki, which is a shame because it's gonna take a bit of time to find it all again and get it organized,

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:56:10 No.20072101 Report

Quoted By: >>20072116

>>20072024
Not bad at all.

That chapter symbol though...the open wings are okay, butI'm never gonna get over the tail.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 15:57:19 No.20072116 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072101

Well the light gray is actually the sketch layer. I can quickly erase it if need be.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:17:30 No.20072319 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072072

I'm looking through the old threads archived on suptg now. Interesting stuff. Salt flats races, Sororitas missions to nomad territories recording pre-Imperial legends... Jareddm vetoing everything... Good times.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:17:56 No.20072323 Report

Quoted By:

Finished uploaded the pictures to the wiki.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Give a hoot.png, 394KiB, 1048x1285

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:20:30 No.20072355 Report

Quoted By: >>20072401 >>20073733

Did some shading and removed the emblem.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:21:20 No.20072362 Report

Quoted By:

Finished uploading all of the images.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:25:39 No.20072401 Report

Quoted By: >>20072474 >>20072857

>>20072355

It's a nice pic, but now that the emblem's removed, there's nothing suggesting it's an apotecary dread. I like the mechadendrite idea upthread. It would make it stand out a bit more. Other than that, excellent.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace apothecary shoulder pad finished.jpg, 42KiB, 400x308

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:32:47 No.20072474 Report

Quoted By: >>20072857

>>20072401
I figured you'd have the normal apothecary symbol on it.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:39:15 No.20072517 Report

Quoted By: >>20072526

Do the Nightmares use Stormravens or Stormtalons? I reckon gunships fit their doctrine quite well, and Nightmare marines would be excellent pilot material, with their attention to detail and all.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:40:16 No.20072526 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072517

And their propensity to fall asleep at the wheel (kidding, I know they're paired to prevent that).

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace sleepless 4.png, 46KiB, 709x381

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:40:22 No.20072528 Report

Quoted By: >>20072569 >>20072573

>>20072024
THE DOCTOR IS IN

>>20071976
There is another small bit of fluff that I'm not sure if we made canon. When a marine becomes part of the veteran 1st company the hourglass portion of his chapter emblem is painted black and he puts black trim on his armour. The rest of the armour stays the same, so you would have Primus and Secundus marines with the black trim.

This is the equivalent of a marine having Terminator Honours in another chapter. Terminator honours don't mean the same thing in the Nightmares because only Primus uses it in regular deployment and not all terminators are from 1st company.

The second half of this idea was that the Sleepless have a white hourglass and white armour trim. And the sand in the hourglass is changed so that all of it sits in the lower compartment. This symbolizes how they never sleep and time has stopped for them.

Pic related. But IIRC correctly we agreed that the white sand looked a little weird. So the final version was white hourglass and the normal black sand piled up in the lower part of the hourglass.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:43:55 No.20072569 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072528
Up on the wiki we have the symbols for the Sleepless and the Night Owls next to each other. I think they look pretty solid.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:44:22 No.20072573 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072528
I think that's all canon, or at least it mirrors my recollection of the canon. All the sand being put in the bottom of the owlglass is especially poignant.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 16:58:09 No.20072677 Report

Quoted By: >>20072756 >>20072891

>>20072038
Now that you mention it yeah. Icelus dreads have mechadendrites because they tend to have claws instead of hands. So they use them for manipulating fine objects like keypads and to look around corners and stuff. There is no reason why the other dreads in the chapter wouldn't have them as well. Phobetors would make good use of them, but there are still things dendrites couldn't manage like lifting and carrying comatose marines. So they would still need hands for some tasks.

The dendrites don't match all the other canon but I thought of a PERFECT explanation too. Nightmare dreadnoughts all have mechadrendrites because they use them to weave their dreamcatchers!

As to where they are placed. I think most dreadnoughts would have them mounted in the arms or shoulders for "utility" tasks. And Mk IV and V dreads would have a pair mounted on each side of the sarcophagus. Sort of where a marines arms would be placed if the sarcophagus was an alcove instead of a coffin. Make sense?

That gives me another nice mental image too. A scout, a marine and a dreadnought all weaving around a campfire.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:05:14 No.20072756 Report

Quoted By: >>20072976 >>20073151

>>20072677
umm...but their dreamcatchers would've already been weaved prior to being entombed.

Also, I want you to think carefully about you're suggesting. You're saying that not only do we have a lot of dreads, but that every one of our dreads has an improvement that no other chapter's dreads has ever been seen using.

I don't think so. Maybe on the one techmarine dread that we had mentioned having, but all of them? It's way too big of a change.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:07:28 No.20072784 Report

Quoted By: >>20072801 >>20072807

Hey, where's the updated map?

Also, I found and updated the writeups on the railway guilds of Icelus:

1/7. Aldous Company
Credo: "No delays. No compromise. No mistakes."
Founded by Baron Issachar Aldous and developed by his 3 children, Aldous Company has built a reputation as a solid, reliable Guild that serves midhive and upperhive with an enviable efficiency. Aldous trains are the most punctual in the network, a feat achieved by cogitator-aided trains and hefty bribes to the Plotters in equal measure. Heavy-handed business practices and a competitive edge has given Aldous a near-monopoly on traffic with Quartus hive (with the notable exception of the exclusive supply contract the Nakadah Guild managed to secure with the Emperor's Nightmare chapter). The Aldous monopoly on Quartus-Primus traffic is an insult to the other Guilds, and a source of constant petitions to the Governor's desk.
Rumors: The youngest brother of the Aldous siblings has taken a sudden intrest in the Secundus lower hive levels of late, sponsoring several expeditions to the hive base. This is unusual, especially since Secundus traffic is beyond Aldous territory...

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:08:38 No.20072801 Report

Quoted By: >>20072831

>>20072784

2/7. Balsus Shipping
Credo: "Next stop, tomorrow!"
A guild with close ties to the Mechanicus, Balsus trains boast masterwork engines and servitor-operated turrets. This company specializes in cargo shipping, and Purple Ticket passengers generally shun Balsus trains because of the no-frills interiors and service. Still, this Guild is the one most admired by the Priesthood of Mars for the exemplary way it tends to its machines. Balsus Shipping trains are frequently targeted by raiders seeking to avail themselves of the precious cargo they carry. The Guild keeps them at bay with their mechanizeg guards, as well as strategic alliances with a few nomad clans that are allowed to use cargo compartments to relocate their settlements.
Rumor: A persistent rumor is that the Balsus Guild turns any stowaways they find into servitors. This rumor is false, planted by the Guild itself to mask the actual source of their unending army of lobotomized cyborgs...

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:09:24 No.20072807 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072784
The updated map is on the Icelus page.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:10:56 No.20072831 Report

Quoted By: >>20072863

>>20072801

3/7. Jaharra Lines
Credo: "Tried. Tested. Victorious."
An old Guild, Jaharra Lines was the winner in the vicious Waystation Wars of M36-37 and has since cemented its influence on the western parts of Icelus. Jaharra's intrests lie in controlling key chokepoints of the rail infrastructure, such as major crossings and forks. The Guild operates tired, worn-down trains that the common folk can ride for cheap, as well as lavish, extravagant rail yachts for the purple-ticketed crowd. Jaharra Lines is dogged by a persistent scandal that concerns an ill-fated merger plan with House Quarter. Following the Waystation Wars, an arranged marriage between the eldest son of House Quarter and the then-debutante Belesa Jaharra was poised to secure both Houses' fortunes. However, the Quarter's Folly incident financially crippled House Quarter and the marriage was canceled, souring relations between the houses. When Jaharra withdrew from the deal, House Quarter's other rivals took advantage of their weakened state to stamp the Quarters out of the industry, something the surviving Quarters curse Jaharra Lines for to this day.
Rumor: The Matriarch Belesa Jaharra is growing tired of her rejuvenant-extended life, and is preparing to hand her empire over to one of her most trusted concubines... but which one?

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:12:48 No.20072857 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072401
>>20072474

I'll see to it later. I've some other things to do right now. Hope this thread'll be up then.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:13:16 No.20072863 Report

Quoted By: >>20072886

>>20072831

4/7. Lindacr Travels
Credo: "Movement is the life of Man"
The brain child of the eccentric Baron Lindacr, this Guild specializes in luxury train services for the hiver elite. Nobles wishing to survey their estates or travel for leisure use the small, sleek Lindacr trains to the fullest. The most popular departures are booked up several years in advance, and in some cases tickets have been the subject of duels to the death. Lindacr also maintains close ties with land-train caravan lords, something that earns him a great deal of scorn from rival Guildmasters, but ensures him excellent guides for the annual hunting trips that hive nobles make into the Icelus wilds. The hunts are extravagant social affairs, especially since they are frequented by the Planetary Governor Maximilian Escidia who is always eager to add to his immence collection of trophies and specimens. Lindacr's friendship with the Governor also ensure favorable relations with the Plotters' Combine.
Rumor: The departure schedule of Lindacr trains has become increasingly erratic. Unbeknownst to all, if one were to plot the movement of all trains from this Guild, one would see a pattern, almost like a hieroglyphic language being inscribed on the surface of Icelus...

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:14:22 No.20072886 Report

Quoted By: >>20072923

>>20072863

5/7. Varinez - Magroth United Lines
Credo: "Emperor's Blessings, Terra's Steel"
A Guild formed from the merger of two smaller baronies, V-M boasts the best security of all Guilds in the business. Because of Varys Magroth's connections within the Munitorum, V-M militia guards are hand-picked from the PDF, and Esma Varines' contacts within the Mechanicus keep the Guild's autogun turrets well-oiled and their murder-servitors impeccably programmed. In fact, the flagship train of V-M, the Elhunon, has never once suffered a raider attack, robbery or hijacking, something no train of any other Guild has managed. The Elhunon's guns keep nomads at bay, while strict and draconian security measures ensure infiltration attempts are foiled long before departure, making it the train of choice for paranoid nobles and couriers with precious cargo.
Rumor: While the two Guild heads are deeply in love, their children and heirs hate each other. Minor skirmishes have already erupted between gangs loyal to each of the five siblings, and it's only a matter of time before a full Rail War erupts on V-M soil...

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:14:41 No.20072891 Report

Quoted By: >>20073066

>>20072677
>they use them to weave their dreamcatchers

Yeah that is perfect.

I've always imagined most dendrites as being retractable and coming from underneath the larger armour sections. Mostly for the nightmarish 'infestation of snakes' vibe. Now I'm torn though, because I get a kick out of six limbed robots, and the idea of a dreadnought with two huge weapon arms and two dainty flailing tube arms is oddly adorable. Ultimately though I think dendrites should be non-standardized. Some would be retractable, some bolted on. Some dreads would have dozens all waving about like robot dreadlocks others would only have one, underneath an armoured plate, for use in emergencies.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:16:38 No.20072923 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072886

6/7. Concordat of Daloush
Credo: "His will be done in every endeavour"
One of the largest power players in Icelus, Daloush holds a comparatively small area of the rail network, but makes up for it by diversifying into the much-despised land train and caravan market. Daloush is not run in the traditional Rail Guild way, with a baron leading the organization. Rather, all decisions are made by a gathering of stakeholders, which include a few nomad wheel-lords as well as hiveborn nobles. Daloush also owns and operates a number of mines on Icelus and within the asteroid belts, making it one of the most important supplier of precious minerals to the manufactorums.
Rumor: Returnees from a Daloush expedition into the deep uncharted regions of Icelus' remote asteroid belt refuse to go back and continue prospecting for obscure reasons.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:22:13 No.20072976 Report

Quoted By:

>>20072756
Catchers do get added to and reweaved over time though.

And mechadendrites really aren't as big a change as you're suggesting. They're like... entry level adeptus mechanicus technology. It's like saying that dreadnoughts with autosenses that include night vision would be too big a change. Or that additional armour plating would be heresy. Which... okay that's true sometimes if you're a regressive tech adept, but anyone magos rank and above, and especially an astartes techmarine, is going to know better.

Frankly I've always assumed in my head canon that every dreadnought has a mechadendrite under a panel somewhere for emergencies when it needs to pick something up. I know 40k is grimderp but it's just silly for a thing like that not to have an R2D2-like panel that pops open and a little grabby doohicky that comes out. What if it needs to pick up the macguffin it just fought a battle to win? What if picking up the macguffin and pressing a tiny stupid button on it is the only way to win the war?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:30:46 No.20073066 Report

Quoted By: >>20073239

>>20072891
They get reweaved when something of significance happens in the marine's life. That's probably not going to happen for dreads.
I just don't see the appeal. Aside from the Icelus, you really don't see mechadendrites anywhere outside of the adeptus mechanicus. You really believe every dread has a fine manipulator tool?

As for the example of pushing a button to win? Yes, I'd say they'd lose. You could say it's related to why you can't take objectives in the tabletop with a dreadnought.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:38:26 No.20073151 Report

Quoted By: >>20073298 >>20073318

>>20072756
>You're saying that not only do we have a lot of dreads, but that every one of our dreads has an improvement that no other chapter's dreads has ever been seen using.

Well first off we DO have a lot of dreads. I counted all the ones listed on the force organization chart you made and came up with 62. That doesn't include the CLASSIFIED number of venerable 1st company dreads and the CLASSIFIED number of waking dead. (Don't forget also that the same 30% inactivity clause applies to dreadnoughts as well as marines, so about a third of them are actually hibernating)

I had an explanation for this but I can't remember if I shared it before. When a nightmare becomes a dreadnought his sleep cycle changes for unknown reasons and tends to stretch out longer. Instead of 1 month on 1 month off it can be 6 months on and 5 off or even years or decades. This makes dreadnoughts MUCH more reliable in combat than your average marine. This is why the chapter doesn't use marine Devastators at all and relies on dreadnoughts and vehicles to carry most of the heavy weapons.

In a sense the dreadnoughts are a pillar of stability that the rest of the chapter relies upon. So it makes sense that they would have a lot of them and devote a lot of resources. Even without the whole HONOUR THE ANCESTORS thing.

As for the unique improvement. We kind of already have one in the shoulder mounted storm bolters. The explanation for those was that the techmarines designed the shoulder mount for Icelus dreads because it freed up their hands for other things and allowed them to shoot over cover. They soon realized that this would be helpful for normal dreads as well, the phobetors in particular. So they retrofit the other dreads with them. Progress right? The Imperium CAN innovate despite all the evidence to the contrary.

-field limit-

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:39:23 No.20073166 Report

Quoted By:

7/7. Nakadah Wayfarer's Service
Credo: "Tried and True"
Mikober Nakadah took the trial of the Gillyflower at the age of 11. While he managed to survive several skirmishes with nomads, raiders and fellow competitors, he failed to preserve a flower. Impressed by his acumen and skill, the Nightmares offered him life as a chapter serf. Nakadah turned them down, determined to find a place in life where he could rise to the very top. Recruited into the failing Rail Guild of Thraxos Stam, Nakadah worked his way up from a lowly coal-shoveler to assistant guildmaster and right hand of the Baron. After Baron Stam's untimely death, Nakadah swiftly took over the Guild and transformed it from a corrupt, disorderly mess into a serious contender to the dominance of the major Icelian guilds. Nakadah's keen business sense led him to achieve a complete monopoly on the minor commuter lines that ferry menial workers and midhive laborers from Quintus' sattelite settlements and underground caverns into the vast agri-factoriums of the central hive dome. Nakadah trains are old and worn out, but have a reputation for timely departure and safe arrivals. Honouring the Baron's origins, travel on Nakadah trains is free of charge for any child undertaking the Trial of the Nightmares.
Rumor: Secret Nakadah cargo trains ship large quantities of organic compounds and plant matter from Quintus to Primus. It is rumored that these trains ferry unknown drugs for use by the Emperor's Nightmare chapter and several high-ranking Inquisitors...

That's it for the rail guilds. Next, I'm posting a summary that I wrote up for the two Inquisitors that were rolled up for Icelus.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:42:25 No.20073207 Report

Quoted By: >>20073211 >>20073325

Inquisitor Viscount Pascal Eneko Xabi

Appearing outwardly as a frail, wizened old man, Inquisitor Pascal has a long history of service in the Emperor's Inquisition. Taken from his noble house by the Black Ships as a teen, the Inquisitor has since honed his psychic abilities to reach Epsilon-grade powers. Specializing in telekinesis and divination, Pascal is unafraid to use psykers, mutants and abhumans in his retinue. On Icelus, however, Pascal usually prefers to use natives, since abhumans and mutants are very rare there.

He has maintained extensive ties with House Xabi, that have previously provided their dynastic resources for Pascal in the form of informants, transport (stellar and planet-bound) and funds. Through his former acolyte, Mayra Ushas, Pascal liaises with the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and the League of Blackships. It is believed he maintains a librarium and research facility jointly run with the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, but that is as of yet unconfirmed. It is known however that he maintains a vessel, a herald-type ship comparable in size to a cobra class destroyer. This ship, the 'Inosaya', is known to possess advanced warp drives and plasma coils that allow for much decreased travel times in the void. Pascal also has full access to the asteroid facility built to monitor the Emperor's Nightmares chapter for deviancy.

Inquisitor Pascal is somewhat well-known in Icelian society for having been a ladies' man in his youth. Memories of his liaisons have faded as time has passed. However, Pascal is known among Inquisitors to have been romantically involved with two of his protegés, Inquisitrixes Lera and Mayra.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:43:09 No.20073211 Report

Quoted By: >>20073325

>>20073207

Contd.

Pascal is known to exhibit a fascination with Imperial heraldry, and is in fact a senior member of the sector's College of Arms and Heraldic Devices. This curiosity has also led to him taking an interest in ancient Icelus history, and he is rumored to have spies in the College of Archaeologists as well as informants in the Convent of the Nightingale.

Rejuvenation and prosthetics keep Pascal spry despite his three centuries, telekinetically augmented hammerblows keep him terribly lethal in combat and a penchant for scrying the future seldom leaves him ill-prepared. A well-connected and experienced Inquisitor, Pascal is also a well-known figure in Icelus social circles. Admired by many and hated by the enemies of the Imperium that dwell in the wastes and shadows of Icelus, Inquisitor Pascal Xabi is a force to be reckoned with.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:45:26 No.20073239 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073066
I suppose that makes sense.

Still, I think it's just as likely that a giant robot would have a tiny robot arm somewhere as not have one. If one was casually mentioned in a codex I wouldn't bat an eye.

You're probably right to be wary, and your doing so has been a boon to the project down through the threads, keeping us focused and on track, but I don't think mechadendrites are nearly the big paradigm shattering change you're thinking of them as. It's not strange secret technology. 'Dendrites ARE seen all over the place in the art, not just the mechanicus. Though granted, yes, a tech-adept probably was involved at some point, since it's Imperial technology.

I dunno. Where you see a huge change to the blueprints of a dreadnought I see a modification as banal as extra toes on the feet for traction. I think it makes sense for Nightmare dreads to have them, though I do appreciate your point about not capturing objectives towards the wider world of 40k dreadnoughts not all having them.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:51:09 No.20073298 Report

Quoted By: >>20073394

>>20073151
You're including the Icelus dreads, which we had agreed on a long time ago to not be part of the normal dread count. As for the two unknown numbers, the only agreement we could come to was that the combined number of Night Owl exclusive dreads and Waking Dead were less than 10.

I mentioned to someone else earlier in the thread that the dreadnoughts help stabilize a marine's sleep cycle, pushing it closer to what a normal dread's cycle would be.

The storm bolter is fairly minor, but something I'd still prefer to see only on the Icelus.

And yes, you see mechadendrites in a lot of places, but the one place you don't see them is in standard astartes tech. I feel in 40k, just because there is a simple solution to something, doesn't mean it's appropriate to implement it.

But honestly, it's more about personal preference at this point.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:52:55 No.20073318 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073151
>In a sense the dreadnoughts are a pillar of stability that the rest of the chapter relies upon.

This ties in with older fluff about the psychic dreadnoughts that were sleeping being -rather literally- the pillars on which the manifestation of Bettin-Burgen in the warp is built and held together. August Gavo and his crowd.

And alterations to sleeping patterns can be handwaved as "it's a dreadnought" without a second glance. No worries.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:54:02 No.20073325 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073207
>>20073211
Oh man, Pascal and Mayra. What a great pair of characters to have rolled up.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 17:56:37 No.20073356 Report

Quoted By: >>20073439 >>20073465

Part of the reason I think the dendrites make sense is how Nightmare Dreadnoughts are different from other chapters.

When you think of a "normal" dread like Bjorn for instance. They tend to sleep for long periods of time. Sometimes centuries. Then every now and then the rest of the chapter wakes them up, stuffs them in a drop pod and fires them off into combat. Once the war is over they put them back to sleep again.

Nightmare dreadnoughts are different. They stay awake for long periods of time, and they won't sleep until the time comes. So you have a dreadnought that essentially has to have a "daily life" that includes things other than hibernating and smashing heretic faces. Just think about that for a second. Everything a normal marine does in his spare time. Cleaning weapons and armour. Sparring with other marines. Attending strategy meetings. Checkups with the apothecary. Standing watch over the Sleepers. And so on.

The guy in the dread can't rely on having a bunch of techmarines around all the time. They might all be asleep! (this is why all of the nightmares maintain their own gear) And every now and then he will run into a simple task that can't be done with giant club fists. Things like opening doors, pressing elevator switches, turning the pages of a tome, or weaving a dreamcatcher.

This is why they have the dendrites. And why dreadnoughts in other chapters simply don't need them. The Nightmares don't treat dreadnoughts as heroes who rise from the grave when the chapters need is greatest. They are simply marines (heroes granted) who can be relied upon to stand a long watch without faltering.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:00:19 No.20073394 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073298
>But honestly, it's more about personal preference at this point.

This is why I was pushing earlier for non-standardized use of them. Sometimes it makes sense (and we are reasonable marines most of the time) and sometimes it doesn't. I doubt the average smash-and-terrify dreadnought outfitted to go fighting with a Primus drop pod deployment is going to be prepared for pushing buttons. They'll have to rely on fine motor control with their huge fists at best. Maybe a single retractable hidden 'dendrite for high-fiving their battle brothers after the battle or for writing graffiti on the enemy base.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:04:35 No.20073435 Report

Quoted By:

Inquisitor Mayra Ushas:

A Sister of Battle, Mayra served in Inquisitor Pascal Xabi's retinue at the very beginning of his career. Unlike her mentor, she is an iron-willed, martial-minded orthodox believer in the Imperial Creed. Tasked with guarding the psykers of Icelus's Astropathic Choir, as well as serving as liaison to the Black Ships in the sector, Mayra views psykers as poor lost souls to be tended to and protected, an uncommonly tolerant view of psykers for a Sister that she acquired during her time as Pascal's chief Interrogator and acolyte.

After a certain incident with Inquisitor Pascal (which both she and Pascal refuse to talk about to this day), Mayra took up an oath of celibacy. Perhaps to compensate for renouncing the pleasures of the flesh, she has developed a keen interest in fine cooking and exotic quisines.

The Lady Inquisitor rarely travels outside the sector, but when she does, she uses her personal vessel, "His Resplendent Mercy", a Dictator-class carrier. Her personal retinue is a squadron of highly trained assassins/ fighter pilots from an obscure death cult that glorifies dogfighting. In battle, Inquisitor Mayra uses an archaeotech weapon that is the envy of many and the source of many rumors.

Lady Ushas is not born on Icelus and regards the planet's intricacies and strange customs with suspicion. She is aware of the obscure history of the planet's colonization and the establishment of the hives, but does not take an interest in the details of it like her former mentor Pascal. She has clashed with many notorious cultists and criminals on Icelus, most famously during the Alpha Legion's failed invasion, and carries scars from a battle with a renown Redemptionist nomad leader that continues to elude her attempts to defeat him and his plots.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:04:59 No.20073439 Report

Quoted By: >>20073554

>>20073356
Now this is a convincing argument. Well done.

I'd still limit it to being retractable, or removable, but not both. That it's not combat effective in any means and isn't seen on the battlefield. That it's used only out of combat with the majority of dreads having 1, and a very rare few having 2.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:07:56 No.20073465 Report

Quoted By: >>20073498 >>20073528

>>20073356

>Nightmare dreadnoughts are different. They stay awake for long periods of time, and they won't sleep until the time comes

Really? Why? It seems like a waste of resources. Consider how delicate Dreadnoughts are, and how difficult the technology that keeps the marine inside alive is to repair. The primary reason Dreadnoughts spend so much time deactivated is to minimize wear and tear on them, because loss of even one dreadnought armor is a severe blow to the chapter. I don't see the Nightmares being an exception.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:11:50 No.20073498 Report

Quoted By: >>20073556

>>20073465
Actually, it's less of a problem for the EN. Their manufactorum at Icelus's south pole focuses almost exclusively on dreadnought production.

That said, if the dreads sleep pattern is closer to normal dreads (which I was pretty sure it was), then the dendrite becomes far less important.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:15:01 No.20073528 Report

Quoted By: >>20073696

>>20073465
The idea is that they can't sleep. That while they could be forced into a coma or something, the chemicals involved would damage the pilot's brain because of the catalpsean node mutation. So they have to stay awake regardless of whether it's very efficient.

But being awake for long periods doesn't really mean lots of wear and tear. It just means wandering around the fortress monastery being bored, or sitting around with other dreadnoughts playing chess. Or going off to big important battles of course, which is what normal dreads do anyway. All it really means is a little extra preventative maintenance every month which, thanks to the chapter's dread focused forges, is almost an afterthought.

They're still not deployed to every average battlefield unless they're truly needed, just to minimize the risk of a chassis being destroyed by war, but they'll be awake, in logistics positions where they don't have to move or get shot at by railguns, helping to guide the chapter.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:17:20 No.20073554 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073439
Well, most dreadnoughts would have 2. (you need 2 to weave something). More than that however? I don't think any dread would need more than 2. Icelus dreads being the exception but they use dendrites for more than just manipulating things. I think we decided at one point there is a techmarine dreadnought in the chapter. He fills kind of the same role that the Phobetor does, but for the Waking Dead instead. HE would have tons of dendrites. And servo arms too.

Retractable makes the most sense. A dendrite is basically a rope, you can coil it up into a really small space. Adding more dendrites onto the chassis (for whatever reason) is a trivial task anyhow.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:17:29 No.20073556 Report

Quoted By: >>20073619 >>20073663

>>20073498

>Because the art of constructing them has been almost lost, Dreadnoughts are revered as rare machines.

This is from Lexicanum, and it references Imperial Armor Volume Two, which I don't have, so I can't verify the quote, but it matches what I know of the fluff. I don't think we ever went as far as to say that Icelus _produces_ Dreadnoughts. I think the manufactorums there can make replacement armor parts, stuff like that, but making an entirely new Dread all from scratch? Even the Icelus pattern is basically a modification of a pre-heresy armor, right? No new ones have been built.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:24:12 No.20073619 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073556
>almost lost
This is the key there. They can be made, they're just rare and take ages and not many know how to do it.

Mars, Gryphonne IV, etc, as well as Icelus are some of the places that do.

Icelus doesn't really make dreadnoughts from scratch since it's no easy task, and they do venerate the machines as holy relics. But strictly speaking they can make any individual part needed.

>the Icelus pattern is basically a modification of a pre-heresy armor, right? No new ones have been built.
No they were built on site. It's a master-crafting of a pre-heresy dreadnought mark. They didn't get old ones and polish them. They had to be built from scratch, each nut and bolt master crafted to operate under the pressure and expectations demanded of a mission-capable Icelus pattern dreadnought.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:28:29 No.20073663 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073556
I have a copy of IA Vol 2 right in front of me. Quoting from the first page about dreadnoughts, "Secret and arcane knowledge knowledge is used to keep those dreadnoughts that do exist functioning, but very few "new" dreadnoughts are constructed today, and only by the few skilled specialists who have preserved the required technology"

Further on, "Very few new dreadnoughts can be built; each one must be hand-crafted by a skilled tech-magos and takes many years to complete."

It does not say that the technology has been lost entirely.
What the EN have done, is dedicated their manufactorum almost entirely towards dread production, to the detriment of other areas, such as vehicle production and ship maintenance.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:31:40 No.20073696 Report

Quoted By: >>20073865

>>20073528

I thought dreadnoughts are put to "sleep" simply by turning off most of the advanced life support functions of the sarcophagus, slowing down metabolism and basically functioning like a "cryosleep" while preserving the marine. Consider that if a dreadnought is active all the time, the crippled marine inside will die much faster than the usual "expiration date". Then you have to stuff some other cripple into the sarcophagus, and that's a delicate procedure every time. It means you risk damaging the sarcophagus' systems whenever you swap out marines, because the archaeotech stuff is difficult to do properly and plugging in a marine in the life support system is the "archaeotechiest" of all the aspects of Dreadnought activation. The whole thing you guys are proposing just doesn't fit with what I know of Dread lore.

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ComfyCushion Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:35:43 No.20073733 Report

Quoted By: >>20073849 >>20073882 >>20073898

>>20072355
Would claws look better than hands?

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:46:22 No.20073849 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073733
Eh, I think I prefer the hand. Unless you want to do one hand, one claw, in which case I'd make the claw significantly bigger.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:47:54 No.20073865 Report

Quoted By: >>20073910

>>20073696
You're not wrong. The idea being presented is that we'd handwave it to something different due to our chapter's mutated catalpsean node affecting it. It makes about enough sense for it to be a factor as not, considering that it is one of the "it's future technology I ain't gotta explain shit" aspects of the core of our chapter.

I'm not completely sold either way though. It doesn't really impact me or my perceptions of the chapter for them to have normally sleeping dreadnoughts. I just really like the idea of off-duty dreadnoughts being a "thing" and the mental image of Nightmare dreads sitting around playing card games with each other.

Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:49:27 No.20073882 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073733
I also preferred the hands. They were classy.

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Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:51:33 No.20073898 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073733

I think hands make them stand out more from different, more combat-oriented dreadnoughts.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:52:17 No.20073910 Report

Quoted By: >>20073969

>>20073865

I know Deathwatch dreads are periodically awoken just to provide intelligence on xeno fighting and stuff, so there is precedent for noncombat dreads. I just think it works a bit better if you have the Sleepless dreadnoughts _deactivated_ but still _awake_ inside the sarcophagus. Imagine, you're awake but slowed, thoughts stretching through decades, like a sensory deprivation tank session that stretches on and on. It's terrifying and awe-inspiring. To me at least.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 18:58:41 No.20073969 Report

Quoted By: >>20074230

>>20073910
This is actually the basis for the Waking Dead. It's complete sensory deprivation but you can't sleep, can't move, and your thoughts are going a mile a minute even with heavy sedatives. It's a fairly terrifying design, and I think it accomplishes that goal.

But for normal dreads, I'm starting to lean back towards having a normal dread sleep cycle rather than an EN cycle. That this is one of the practical reason they focus so heavily on dreads, if entombed marines can be put to sleep or awakened as needed, this breaks them of the normal sleep cycle.

The thing is, if this is the case, dreads wouldn't really have the kind of downtime that has been referred to. They'd certainly be woken up more often than other chapter's dreads, maybe once a decade or more, but there's so many more of them that dreads would be a common presence regardless.

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Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:04:57 No.20074040 Report

Quoted By: >>20074333

On the subject of Mechandrites, what about adding them inside the hand? They are retractable and coil into the palm. If it's a powerfist (pic), it can coil into the center easily. If it's the hand, it could, say, come out of the wrist.

I also feel that Phobetor dreads would have them in the hands: the can lash out and catch the sleepless like a rope, and rapidly drag them back to the waiting hand and glaive.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:20:59 No.20074230 Report

Quoted By:

>>20073969

Looks like a good compromise to me. I also think that during noncombat activation, you could probably swap out the weapon arms on the dreads for more fine-tuned manipulators or dendrite appendages.

Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:29:06 No.20074333 Report

Quoted By: >>20074457

>>20074040
The issues I see with having them in the arms is that dreadnoughts don't always have their arms attached to the main torso. The arms are interchangeable, and based what I recall in some of the graphic novels Marines typically don't roam the halls armed with weapons, so why would dreadnoughts during their down-time?

Having the mechandrites stored under the main torso blocks next to the sensory mechanics already present seems most logical. After all, I'd doubt that these simple-use mechandorites are long, strong, or large enough for any effective combat use.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:38:46 No.20074457 Report

Quoted By: >>20074533

>>20074333

It could be an attachment module made from their ties with the AdMech. You'd think the AdMech would keep a very close eye on the ENs, considering they've got so much precious equipment. The dendrite module would be removed from the Walking Dead Dreads, if we are keeping those a thing. Thicker mechandorites could be incorporated into Phobetor Dread hands, but would be removed during deactivation.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:46:03 No.20074533 Report

Quoted By: >>20074642 >>20074668

>>20074457
It's Waking Dead, and I don't think those are going anywhere.

I'm okay with having a single thin mechadendrite on the bottom on either side of the main chasis.

> You'd think the AdMech would keep a very close eye on the ENs,
You have no idea how many times this phrase has been brought up. If we include the AdMech, who are already watching them for a completely different reason, that makes the Inquisition, the AdMech, the Sisters, and the Scholastica Psykana. At this point, half the damn Imperium is keeping an eye on this chapter! Don't you think there might be a problem with that?

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:53:59 No.20074642 Report

Quoted By: >>20074737

>>20074533

Yeah, pushes them into the dreaded special snowflake, or worse, sue territory. Do not want.

The thin dendrites work. And I just had a mental image of a Waking Dead (kept misreading it!) having a mirror propped in front of him and using the dendrites to etch its armor in the reflection.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 19:55:47 No.20074668 Report

Quoted By:

>>20074533

I could also suggest that when they're not needed for battle, they sit around with mechadendrites replacing the heavy arms.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 20:00:32 No.20074737 Report

Quoted By: >>20075366

>>20074642
Well, this was sorta my argument against the dendrites in the first place.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 20:43:48 No.20075366 Report

Quoted By:

>>20074737

Seems like my brain doesn't want to logic today. I think I'll sit back for now and brush up on Nightmare fluff and maybe some crunch if I can wrap my head around it.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 20:49:37 No.20075437 Report

Quoted By: >>20075654

240 posts so far. So autosage soon.

>What the EN have done, is dedicated their manufactorum almost entirely towards dread production, to the detriment of other areas, such as vehicle production and ship maintenance.
Oh I wouldn't go that far. Its not so ridiculous when you think about it. A normal chapter that lives on a lifeless deathworld under a lake of acid isn't going to have a whole lot of manufacturing capability. But the Nightmares live on a hive world.

Take 30+ BILLION factory workers * 4000 years man hours worth of labour... A couple dozen dreadnought frames doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore does it? The Imperium doesn't do anything small scale. Hive Primus alone could EASILY manufacture 100 million lasguns an hour if it wanted to. A single dreadnought is not a big deal if you have centuries to work on it. And the Nightmares have existed as a chapter for 4 millenia.

>But for normal dreads, I'm starting to lean back towards having a normal dread sleep cycle rather than an EN cycle.
No way! Not up for debate. Narcolepsy is what makes the chapter unique. EVERY marine suffers from it and it affects every single fibre of the chapter. Why is the chapter led by a council instead of a chapter master? Narcolepsy. Why doesn't the chapter use devastator squads? Narcolepsy. Why does every marine carry a dreamcatcher? Narcolepsy!

It would be madness not to include the dreadnoughts in this as well.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:03:54 No.20075654 Report

Quoted By:

>>20075437
But as was stated earlier, it's not the hives that make dreadnoughts or any of the high quality astartes gear, it's the Admech magos and techmarines at Installation 242, and there's a lot fewer of them than the hive workers.

And other chapters have other world's manufacturing capabilities supporting them, the Icelus really don't have that as much.
Also it's 3 millenia, not 4.

Because the whole point of putting so many marines in dreads is that it allows their sleep cycles to be managed with a greater degree of control. They're still at risk of possession without their dreamcatchers, they still wake up when it is time to rise, but they can be put back to sleep with much greater ease than any other marine.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:14:46 No.20075808 Report

Quoted By:

>I also feel that Phobetor dreads would have them in the hands: the can lash out and catch the sleepless like a rope, and rapidly drag them back to the waiting hand and glaive.
That's hilarious and makes perfect sense. Much more realistic than that stupid magna grapple.

>The issues I see with having them in the arms is that dreadnoughts don't always have their arms attached to the main torso. The arms are interchangeable, and based what I recall in some of the graphic novels Marines typically don't roam the halls armed with weapons, so why would dreadnoughts during their down-time?
I think you guys are overthinking the issue. Just because a dread stays awake for years at a time doesn't mean he will spend all of it doing nothing. Awake dreadnoughts are almost always either in a warzone or travelling towards a fight. In both cases it wouldn't make any sense for them to remove the weapon arms.

Sometimes a company is rotated home for garrison duty to reinforce and retrain. If it had active dreadnoughts they would either be rotated to active companies if recently woken. But sometimes a dreadnought is at the end of its cycle and ready to sleep again. In that case the dread would usually be kept closer to home and fill more of an adviser role. Helping out with training and stuff like that before it finally goes to sleep and is placed back in the vaults.

The chapter carefully tracks every sleep cycle so they can do things like ship out sleeping dreads and marines in anticipation of them waking up so they can participate in a fight later. This is the primary job of the Apothecarion.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:16:00 No.20075826 Report

Quoted By:

>>20070227

I fucking love that sigil and love the idea of adding removing elements as the situation requires. I'm all for these newer redesigns, as the old one(as someone said before) seemed to work better as a draft than as a final product.

Jareddm Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:20:24 No.20075894 Report

Quoted By:

I don't know. I'm flip-flopping too much on this dread thing, so for now I'm just going to abstain on it.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:45:28 No.20076202 Report

Quoted By: >>20076243

>But as was stated earlier, it's not the hives that make dreadnoughts or any of the high quality astartes gear, it's the Admech magos and techmarines at Installation 242, and there's a lot fewer of them than the hive workers.
I remember Installation 242 being an experimental facility. Not the only mechanicus fabrication plant on the entire planet. Icelus has a population of 36 billion. Easily 80% of them are factory workers, and who runs the factories? The mechanicus of course. You DO need special knowledge to craft things like power weapons. But SHITTONS of skill labour counts for a lot. Magos don't assemble dreadnoughts in their basement with clamps and an arc welder after all.

>Also it's 3 millenia, not 4.
We actually retconned this because it fit better. 4k years ago was the Sentinel founding when a whole slew of chapters were created to stand guard over the Imperium. The Nightmares were created to guard Icelus and the rest of the southern galactic rim. Out here you get things like the Halo Stars and the Veiled Region. Serious Business. It's really not that big of a change.

>And other chapters have other world's manufacturing capabilities supporting them, the Icelus really don't have that as much.
Its all there in the fluff. Icelus is a hive world specialized towards the production of arms and armour. Icelus is way out in the boonies on the galactic southern rim. There are fewer inhabited planets and even fewer forge worlds. Icelus itself would have become a forge world except there aren't enough agriworlds around to support a population that large. (This is why there are only 5 hives and the fifth feeds itself)

So Icelus operates as the armoury for the entire sector. Hive Primus has the largest population and tons of factories. Hive Quartus is smaller, but it handles the heavy machining. Between the two of them they can produce anything short of whole titans and starships.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:48:58 No.20076243 Report

Quoted By: >>20076343

>>20076202
You know it could be 3 or 4. We don't know when specifically in M38 the chapter was made. If it was at the tail end of M38, it would've only been 3 millenia.

Starshadow Sat 28 Jul 2012 21:58:20 No.20076343 Report

Quoted By: >>20076500

>>20076243
Its perfectly fine for the actual number to be a mystery. Pretty the only one who can tell at this point is Randolphus when he wakes up some day.

I have to go for a while. Been a lot of fun! We tend to argue about everything. But if you look back at the previous discussion threads almost everything has worked out this way. Ideas get proposed, other people think they don't make sense or are stupid. Compromises are made, new ideas are formed and BAM, Magic!

There are some things I haven't touched on like the Icelus dreads and the Nightmare Codex. I was fairly well versed in 4th and 5th edition. But I'll be the first to admit that I don't know ANYTHING about 6th edition. If someone could explain the major changes that would be great. I need to find some time and check out the new rulebook.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 22:14:54 No.20076500 Report

Quoted By: >>20076770

>>20076343

I know Stealth got a buff, and there's Shroud now too) Cover got better for stealthy units, getting a generic 4+ save in the open and ANY cover at all upgrades it to a 2+. This makes Stealth or Shroud units incredibly effective (Tau Stealth Suits now have the durability of a Terminator) and it'd be wise to take these into consideration for the Stealthy Dreads.

Anonymous Sat 28 Jul 2012 22:42:37 No.20076770 Report

Quoted By:

>>20076500

You know what, why tell when I can show? Here's the .pdfs for every army and their updates in relation to 6th edition.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018&se
ction=&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2&multiPageMode=true

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Cartography Servitor Sat 28 Jul 2012 22:50:21 No.20076882 Report

Quoted By:

I've got to say I'm finding it quite amusing to watch us remind each other of fluff tidbits as we all groggily try to get back into the swing of things.

There's so much stuff. I thought I knew most of it by heart but there are so many cool little details we made that I'd forgotten about.

So cheers. Here's to you, /tg/! The Nightmare is something great.

SC Guy Sat 28 Jul 2012 23:40:19 No.20077447 Report

Quoted By:

There's still a bunch to discuss, I'm gonna hit the sack. If there's no new thread by the time I wake up I'll make one.

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Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 01:31:13 No.20078864 Report

Quoted By: >>20080373 >>20081931 >>20081965

I'm intrigued by the Icelucian Guard. Perhaps an IG regiment can be birthed from the Nightmare project as well? I might take to modeling a few Icelucian Guardsmen and a Commissar, and perhaps incorporating the Ash Raptor creatures into the Guard rather than the Chapter. It makes more sense that way. Many of my ideas have been a little too flashy for the Marines, so I might take a stab at Guard aesthetics,

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 03:13:00 No.20080373 Report

Quoted By:

>>20078864

Actual models of the Icelusians would be awesome to see.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 05:19:15 No.20081931 Report

Quoted By:

>>20078864
That would be cool! We do have some fluff about the PDF already but it's spread over a bunch of the discussion threads. There are some elements that have already been established.

- Unlike most examples of backwater PDF forces. The Icelus PDF is well trained and well armed. Originally left more or less to their own devices. In recent centuries the Nightmares have taken on greater control. Vetting and selecting officers by merit. Training the PDF directly in the art of war. As a result they have become one of the most deadly fighting forces in the galactic south. Taking notice of this the Imperium has often requested to second PDF soldiers into the Imperial Guard. Something almost unheard of for a chapter homeworld which normally does not pay any tithes to the Imperium.
- To date around 30 regiments of Icelian Guard have been founded and are waging war around the Imperium. Returning home every now and then to resupply and take on new recruits. This is a very small contribution compared to larger hive worlds which can found hundreds of regiments every year!
- Only nobles and the PDF are allowed to wear purple and gold. ("the lords colours"). This isn't actually a law, the colours are synonymous with power and authority on Icelus. If someone wore the colours and didn't deserve to, everyone else on the planet would call out their bullshit. This applies to all levels of society. For instance only the most cunning and feared of underhive gang leaders would dare to wear even a purple armband.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 05:19:59 No.20081937 Report

Quoted By:

- One of the iconic pieces of PDF equipment is the long beaked gas mask. Masks are almost ubiquitous on Icelus because of industrial pollution near hives and rampant dust storms everywhere else. The beak is designed to deflect shrapnel up and away from the face and also contains extra filter material. This is required because PDF may wear them for months at a time, taking them off only to eat. (sometimes) The actual mask is not nearly as large, the beak can be detached if necessary.
- On Icelus having a large beard or long hair (for women) is considered a sign of wealth and power. It is common for nobles to compete with each other in both length and braiding. To have such indicates that you do not need to wear a mask and do manual labour. It can also indicate access to special augmetics that render airborn toxins moot. Both are signs of wealth and power. Hence even the lowest of hive workers will still grow out their hair as much as their profession allows. The PDF however turn this convention on its head. Every PDF trooper receives depilatory treatments that render them completely and permanently clean shaven. They also adopt short and practical haircuts. To have such short hair as a woman, or to be completely clean shaven as a man is actually a mark of respect and indicates one's status as a professional soldier.

I can go into more detail on equipment and tactics in the next thread.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 05:22:33 No.20081965 Report

Quoted By:

>>20078864

I'd like to do an Icelian Volunteer regiment in Only War, myself. Would be fun to play a nomad sniper weary of them hiveborn folks in his squad.

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Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 05:53:48 No.20082288 Report

Quoted By: >>20082365

Wow, CF really nailed the Icelus look for that Inquisitor.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:01:03 No.20082365 Report

Quoted By: >>20082391 >>20082427 >>20082494

>>20082288

Were they going for an Icelus Inquisitor, or did it just happen to look like that?

I have a few equipment questions:
> What does the Icelus pattern Lasgun look like? Or do they use a standard Cadian model?
> What about their chest armor? I though Cadian flak jackets over a purple trench coat would look pretty cool (and save conversion time!).
> What do commissars wear to make them distinct? Obviously the hat, but I was thinking an hourglass on a chain might be a nice touch, and represent the Nightmare's influence in the Regiment's command structure.

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Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:03:27 No.20082391 Report

Quoted By: >>20082427 >>20082453 >>20082494

>>20082365

I think it's unintentional, but goddamn it, he's even wearing purple.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace Krieg Commissar.jpg, 62KiB, 800x680

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:07:27 No.20082427 Report

Quoted By:

>>20082391
>>20082365

Could take a Commissar idea from our good friends at Krieg. Nice, snazzy jacket. Seamless incorporation of mask and fancy hat. A little purple, some gold trim, a while hourglass or two... we have ourselves an Icelucian worthy of command.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:10:13 No.20082453 Report

Quoted By: >>20082552

>>20082391

Apparently his name is Tobias Garrick Levy, he's Ordo Xenos and he has a background with the Arbites, but I haven't found any info on what planet he's from so there's the option of retconning him into being born and raised on Icelus. If CF agrees, I suppose.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:14:45 No.20082494 Report

Quoted By: >>20082516 >>20082631

>>20082365

Here's a pic of an Icelian commissar from the wiki page. As you can see, he's very Krieg inspired. Between this guy and >>20082391 I think you have a good outline for style.

Also, I'm pretty sure there was a debate at some point on whether the Icelian PDF wears carapace armor over their dress purples or not. I believe the consensus was that they do, out of practicality concerns.

And another thing, the Icelus pattern lascarbine is a longlas with redundant, sandproof and chemical-resistant systems that make it less prone to jamming and easier to recharge.

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Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:17:44 No.20082516 Report

Quoted By: >>20082631

>>20082494

Gah, captcha ate my pic.

Corn Flakes Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:20:38 No.20082552 Report

Quoted By: >>20082561 >>20082611

>>20082453
I first drew the plague doctor inquisitor armor in about 2009. It was not intended to connect with Icelus, awesome as Icelus is.

I have already established that was born and raised on Crussius, however. A severely insignifigant planet as see in the flashback noir bs.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:22:21 No.20082561 Report

Quoted By:

>>20082552

Damn. Well, as long as you're here, I'm officially requesting an Icelian pinup girl for your calendar.

And maybe an Icelian member for the Ragged Edges? That would be so freaking awesome!

Copious Fail Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:27:38 No.20082611 Report

Quoted By: >>20082634

>>20082552
I'll do a little more research on them and see what's up. It's entirely possible. My only concern is accusations of pandering (like I never did THAT before) or more importantly, people thinking I'm trying to take credit for them. I'll be as clear as I can, should I borrow from their fluff, that they are not my invention.

This could be fun!

It is worth keeping in mind that the Inquisition gets it supplies from a variety of planets and ages. With all the ffort you guys have made, there's no harm in saying officially that Levy's armor is of Icelian manufacture. That works, right?

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:30:05 No.20082631 Report

Quoted By: >>20082686

>>20082516

Liking the Powerfist there. Definitely going to field a commissar with a powerfist and pistol for rule-of-cool.

>>20082494

So, what kind of lasgun counts-as am I looking at? Do I need to start collecting long lasguns? Any other weapon specialties, equipment loadouts, or vehicles they have a focus on? Preferred combat style and tactics?

I do like Sentinels, but I'm not sure walkers have the advantage over the flat ashen plains than tread vehicles. Maybe if the surface had unpredictable terrain that could foul up vehicle treads.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:30:30 No.20082634 Report

Quoted By:

>>20082611

I can't speak for all the writefags involved, but personally I'm delighted. Sure, his mask and hood can be of Icelus make. If Levy spent time on Icelus he could have interacted with some of our local Inquisitors, too. That would be cool.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:35:51 No.20082686 Report

Quoted By: >>20082797

>>20082631

Most fluff for Icelus regiments I've seen have them be regular mechanized infantry. I'm sure there could also be a drop regiment or two, it fits their tactics. They're capable cityfighters, but because of the substantial nomad presence, the regiments are more comfortable with combat outside cramped habs than a regular hiveborn army. There's a strong racing subculture in the acid flats, so I bet they make for capable Chimera drivers. On the homeworld, the Icelus PDF makes use of armored battle-trains as well, but that's not a practical option in most offworld scenarios.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:46:22 No.20082797 Report

Quoted By:

>>20082686

I'm a fan of drop regiments. Icelucian Strom Troopers would probably look awesome. Could change out standard Cadian flak jackets for Elysian armor and accompanying equipment (backpacks, grav chutes...) Of course money would be the issue for Drop Sentinels, but if I'm just constructing some basic troopers and infantry, vehicles shouldn't matter. Maybe I'll make an Icelucian Kill Team.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace notsureifwant.jpg, 175KiB, 494x662

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:57:59 No.20082910 Report

Quoted By: >>20083177

I am totally okay with more pinup girls.

>or more importantly, people thinking I'm trying to take credit for them. I'll be as clear as I can, should I borrow from their fluff, that they are not my invention.
Don't worry about it. The Nightmares of Icelus are a collaborative project. Its why they are so awesome and chronically unfinished in equal measure. Unlike SOME codexes I could mention...

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:59:00 No.20082924 Report

Quoted By: >>20083027 >>20083177

Personality-wise, soldiers of Icelian Volunteer Regiments are rugged individualists, and the hierarchies of any given regiment are complex and don't always map accurately with the chain of command, since hiveborn/nomad, clan/guild/house allegiances, and family ties make for a very fluid power balance. The culture of Icelus is also very influenced by the Trial of the Gillyflower, the Marine rite of admission that many Icelian children undertake. Subsequently, they develop an "every man for himself" mentality. This does not mean cooperation and friendship isn't valued, it simply means that every soldier is expected to be able to survive difficult situations on his own, isolated from his fellows and given confused and contradictory orders. Icelians think on their feet and don't adhere rigidly to the Imperial Uplifting Primer, however they respect leadership and are fiercely loyal to anyone they feel deserves it.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:00:12 No.20082938 Report

Quoted By: >>20083177

>With all the ffort you guys have made, there's no harm in saying officially that Levy's armor is of Icelian manufacture. That works, right?
I had a bunch of notes about this actually. I forgot where I stored them but I still remember the gist of it. Icelus has been a manufacturing hive world for as long as it has existed in Imperial records. It later became a chapter homeworld because of its strategic importance and still fulfils its purpose despite the fact that marine homeworlds don't pay taxes.

Icelus favours a quality over quantity approach when fabricating weapons and armour.. It could mass produce billions of basic lasguns, but there simply wouldn't be enough soldiers to use them. This far from Terra the galaxy is less populated, so while the demand for equipment is there. They can afford to take their time with each and every piece of equipment and craft it to a high standard. That isn't to say they mass produce masterwork items. But they do have a level of artistry to their work that you wouldn't find in more utilitarian places. Cadia being a good example.

Icelus produced everything from laspistol batteries to Macro-Cannons for the Imperial Navy. And since forge worlds are few and far between they export goods to planets and warzones far and wide. The shipyards in orbit do not construct ship hulls. New ships of the line often come to Icelus to get their teeth. Repair and refit facilities are sometimes booked centuries in advance.

An inquisitor having equipment from Icelus would make perfect sense. Especially Xenos inquisitors. The Nightmares have a very long history with the Deathwatch. And the Inquisition actually maintains its sector administration office in Hive Primus. (Why does the Inquisition have a presence on a chapter homeworld? Well that is one hell of a long story... next time!)

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Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:08:25 No.20083027 Report

Quoted By: >>20083269

>>20082924

I feel like they would distain the use of Flamers, coming from a world choking to death on ash. Then again, they probably don't give a fuck when they're staring down a 'nid rush.

They sound like my kind of soldiers! I imagine the flower features on symbols a lot. We could have some Icelus Guard fluff, campaigns of note, favored tactics, and maybe named regiments and heroes.

But then again, we shouldn't forget that this is an Emperor's Nightmares thread, not Icelucian Guard. It doesn't mean we can't explore the culture and other background fluff of the Nightmare's homeworld and their badass PDF, but we shouldn't lose sight of the original Chapter either.

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Trace 1305691354784.jpg, 294KiB, 1525x1075

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:10:42 No.20083050 Report

Quoted By: >>20083168

> What does the Icelus pattern Lasgun look like? Or do they use a standard Cadian model?
The standard PDF weapon is the long-las. They favour accuracy over rate of fire. And since the main purpose of the PDF is to defend the outer wall of Hive structures its not so strange to have an entire regiment armed with essentially DMRs. The long-las is only the most common weapon however, they do maintain a large armoury and can equip themselves for any situation.

> What about their chest armor? I though Cadian flak jackets over a purple trench coat would look pretty cool (and save conversion time!).
I suppose this is partly personal preference. But we decided early on that the PDF would have really pouffy frilled outlandish uniforms. See pic related. Combined with the purple and gold colouration this provokes a lot of mockery from other regiments. But its a deliberate contrast to how deadly they are. Some of the writefaggotry on our wiki page is about this.

> What do commissars wear to make them distinct?
Well every commissar always has at least two things. The peaked hat and the scarlet sash. Those are his literal badges of office. As well you also have the greatcoat and a splint armour breastplate. But it really varies on the regiment, a guy attached to some jungle fighters might ditch the coat but would keep the sash for instance.

There is room for some creativity here as this isn't something we ever figured out. They would have the bird masks of course, but every soldier on Icelus has one.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:18:42 No.20083128 Report

Quoted By: >>20083202

>The culture of Icelus is also very influenced by the Trial of the Gillyflower, the Marine rite of admission that many Icelian children undertake. Subsequently, they develop an "every man for himself" mentality. This does not mean cooperation and friendship isn't valued, it simply means that every soldier is expected to be able to survive difficult situations on his own, isolated from his fellows and given confused and contradictory orders.
Right on the money! I have to reiterate the point here. This is NOT some kind of survivalist "fuck the neighbours" mentality. In a nutshell it means that every person on Icelus from arctic nomads to hive nobles to the lowest of underhive scum must be able to survive on their OWN merits. Working together as a group works great, but there will eventually come a time when you must rely on yourself. And when that day comes you either rise to the challenge or perish in the attempt.

Its also why society on Icelus is completely egalitarian.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:21:56 No.20083168 Report

Quoted By: >>20083298

>>20083050

Stormtroopers, however, do wear carapace armor over the dress uniform. I also think that the PDF proper would dress Swiss Guard-style, while the Volunteer Regiments would have more practical uniforms, with the dress purples only being brought out for parades and drills.

Classic Fruitsalad Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:23:19 No.20083177 Report

Quoted By: >>20083399 >>20083417

>>20082910
I may or may not leave the mask on. Need to figure out the overall design of the character first. What don't I get to draw enough of? Hmmm..

>>20082924
We could use someone like that. A person who combines the qualities of a soldier and an agent.

>>20082938
Makes sense.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:25:44 No.20083202 Report

Quoted By: >>20083417

>>20083128

I wouldn't say "egalitarian" as much as "meritocratic". Everyone is expected to earn their position in society, and if you can't walk your talk, then shut up and get back in line. Icelians respect their betters, but only if said betters are actually PROVEN to be better. This is why the Redemptionist cults are such a corruption of the Icelian way of life: their leaders are not chosen by merit, but rather by demagoguery and preaching.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:29:12 No.20083226 Report

Quoted By: >>20083269 >>20083305 >>20083417

Hey, now that I think about it, I don't think there's any consensus on what a typical Icelus native actually looks like. They're always drawn with the bird masks on, obscuring their features.

The most important influences for Icelus were Inuits/Native Americans as well as the American Frontier. In that respect, I think Icelians would be brown-skinned or at least have a tanned (or even a "cured leather" look from chemical exposure) skin.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:30:00 No.20083235 Report

Quoted By:

I have a bunch of part sites saved. Any opinions?

> Dress Torso:
http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/5-dress-uniform-torsos

Volunteer regiments can be equipped with Cadian flak jackets over their coats (Storm Troopers going with carapace)...
> But as for lasguns:
http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/4-laser-rifles

> And, finally, the legs:
http://www.maxmini.eu/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=182

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:33:49 No.20083269 Report

Quoted By:

>>20083226

Definitely.

>>20083027

I wouldn't mind seeing a thread over the Icelusian Guard. That would be awesome.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:35:58 No.20083295 Report

Quoted By:

Well, I'm off to bed now.

I'll see about making some minis of the basic troops at least if I can, and when I get the money to do so. Even so, it's going to take a while. I'm not a professional modeler or painter by any means, but I've been gotten lots of compliments on the figures I do have so I suppose I'm okay at it.

Goodnight Nightmare Team.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:36:15 No.20083298 Report

Quoted By:

>>20083168
Just because the PDF has the silly Swiss Guard uniforms doesn't mean that they don't won't use things like camouflage if the situation demands it. One important part of PDF training is direct tutelage by one of the Nightmares. Which battlegroup the nightmare is from has a huge effect because he will pass on his preferred tactics to the soldiers under his watch. Primus for instance favours shock and awe. Fast shattering assaults carried out by soldiers with bright and imposing heradry. Secundus on the other hand is all about stealthy tactics. Ambushes, infiltration, sabotage that sort of thing.

The uniforms might sound ridiculous, but think back to times like the Napoleonic war. Outlandish uniforms were the norm, EVERYONE used them. They served to maintain unit cohesion and intimidate the enemy. I think Icelus PDF would fit right in. Deadly accurate and unshakable purple and gold soldiers in plague doctor masks who can shrug off musket fire. By the standards of the day that is pretty terrifying.

It would ALSO be terrifying if every single one of them swapped the purple and gold for a ghillie suit and went around shanking people at night.

Each tactic is equally viable. The Nightmares prove this beyond any doubt. So try not to think of the purple and gold solely as parade dress.

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Classic Fruitsalad Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:37:02 No.20083305 Report

Quoted By:

>>20083226
relevent to my interests.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:50:09 No.20083399 Report

Quoted By: >>20085595

>>20083177

Character suggestion:

Name: Reiza Hari

Former Unit: 27th Icelus Volunteers

Role: Recon/Chimera driver

Profile: Reiza survived not one, but two massacres. The first being back on her homeworld, when her trader family was slaughtered by raiders who sacked their freight train 50 klicks from Temeris Waystation, and the second time being the Arvonis Incident, when the incompetence of a Lord Militant led to the entire 27th ripped apart by Tau railguns within minutes of landing. In both cases, Reiza reacted as befits a true Icelian: she took her rifle and went hunting. On her homeworld, she managed to track down and kill the bandit leader responsible for the slaughter of her parents. On Arvonis, she held out alone for 5 days as the Tau and their Kroot cronies scoured the area for survivors. She was about to be executed for desertion when she caught the eye of one of Inquisitor Levy's contacts, who forwarded her to Raege.

Abilities: Hari is a consummate tracker and has a keen eye for detail. She is a decent sniper, but her true skill is her ability to stay calm under fire. Hari's upbringing in the underhives of Icelus Secundus and the railway lines of Icelus has taught her survival techniques as well as rudimentary engine maintenance skills. Hari is a competent driver, prone to pushing her vehicles to the speed limit.

Weaknesses: Displays callous disregard towards orders coming from superiors she considers "unworthy of command". While Hari functions well in squads and teams, she doesn't excel in her abilities, and when given a leadership position, is unable to delegate responsibilities. She prefers to work alone.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:52:16 No.20083417 Report

Quoted By: >>20083440 >>20085595

>>20083202
Well, when I say "egalitarian" it pretty much means what you described. A self-policing meritocracy where gender is pretty much irrelevant. You MUST be able to walk your talk, because fate will call you out if no one else will!

Icelus really is a harsh place, even for those who live in the relative comfort of a hive. But it also breeds a hardy and cunning people. This above all else is what the Nightmares value most about the planet, because from these people they draw their recruits.

>>20083177
I'm not sure if Icelus-Chan would be the same without the mask. Just like how no one would recognize Krieg-Chan without the greatcoat. If it is not being worn it could at least be in the frame somewhere I guess.

>>20083226
I don't think you can pin down the inspiration to a particular culture at this point. The majority of the population would tend to be pale, even if they retain the full spectrum of skin colours. They live in hives away from the sun and they also wear masks all the time. Nomads are anyone's guess! They live all over the planet.

One notable exception is the Nightkin. They are a sort of desert dwelling Fremen society. Nightkin are known for being pale as ghosts because they live in caves, often in near complete darkness. When they do emerge on the surface to travel and trade they generally do so at night.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:56:05 No.20083440 Report

Quoted By: >>20083483 >>20083763

>>20083417

I prefer them to be brown simply to have a contrast to Kriegers, who fill the "pale face and gas mask" niche in the IG.

Also, because Inuits are awesome. Blue eyes are a striking contrast on brown skin.

Starshadow Sun 29 Jul 2012 08:01:53 No.20083483 Report

Quoted By:

>>20083440
Considering how pale everyone tends to get I wonder just how "brown" most people would be. Realistically you would have every skin colour under the sun (and a couple that aren't!). Pale brown does seems like a good average though.

Of course the obvious solution is MULTIPLE ladies, with MULTIPLE skin colours. Ethnic diversity for the win right?

I'm all tapped out, see you guys next thread.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 08:28:22 No.20083763 Report

Quoted By:

>>20083440

I started thinking of that photo of a brown-skinned girl smoking a cigarette that always gets posted in "IRL PC" threads. You know which one I'm talking about.

Jareddm Sun 29 Jul 2012 12:25:30 No.20085296 Report

Quoted By: >>20087176

Let's be logical about this. Individuals from upper-class households or from one of the far Northern native tribes would be tanner than any others. This is because both groups have the freedom to spend time sans rebreather. As you go further down the economic ladder or further below the equator, you'll see people growing paler and paler as they spend less time out of rebreather and more time in the harsh toxic environment.

I would describe Icelusian stormtroopers as being relatively more mobile and lightly armored than what you would normally consider a storm trooper. With the long las being the preferred weapon for most of them, they would rather pull back from closing enemies than to try and endure and straight on attack.

The purple and gold dress is worn during combat, and would really only not be worn when camouflage is completely unavoidable.

Sizeable Meatball Sun 29 Jul 2012 13:09:15 No.20085595 Report

Quoted By:

>>20083399
Potential here. I'll see what I can do. I was thinking that as they expanded their forces they could use a second sentinal pilot.

>>20083417
Actually, a lot of the Krieger artwork old an new is quite recognizable even without the mask, so long as other elements are there.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 15:53:23 No.20086783 Report

Quoted By:

So... Is it "Icelusian" or "Icelian"? I think the latter rolls off the tongue better, myself.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 16:35:57 No.20087176 Report

Quoted By: >>20087248

>>20085296

Mobility, eh? So I suppose they'd use Sentinels, bikes and Valkyries for rapid deployment and recon. Can you ride Ash Raptors? Because Ash Raptor rough riders would be an awesome sight.

Jareddm Sun 29 Jul 2012 16:42:10 No.20087248 Report

Quoted By: >>20087352

>>20087176
Sentinals would see use around the equator, mainly because it's significantly more mountainous. Everywhere else it will be tracked and wheeled vehicles.

And unless you're a child, you wouldn't be able to ride an ash raptor. They're only about the size of a large hunting dog. To be honest, I wouldn't even say they'd be very good off world. A regiment may bring one as a mascot, especially if they have a large number of nomads, but I wouldn't say they're very useful in a full on firefight.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 16:50:35 No.20087352 Report

Quoted By: >>20087425

>>20087248

I see. Well, are there any riding beasts on Icelus?

Jareddm Sun 29 Jul 2012 16:57:38 No.20087425 Report

Quoted By: >>20087508

>>20087352
Not that I can think of off the top of my head. Part of the problem with riding animals is they really wouldn't be an effective means of crossing the salt flats, many of which stretch on for thousands of miles. It's not like motorized vehicles are hard to come by anywhere on Icelus, even in the remotest parts of the world.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 17:03:41 No.20087508 Report

Quoted By: >>20087593

>>20087425

Hmm. It would be interesting to invent a creature capable of crossing those very salt flats. I mean, there's lots of them on Icelus, and evolution always finds ways to rise to challenges like that. We have interesting flora and fauna already, I think a beast capable of riding across salt flats would fit. But not anything birdlike, I'm tired of that. A giant insectoid or crustacean-like creature, maybe?

Jareddm Sun 29 Jul 2012 17:11:22 No.20087593 Report

Quoted By: >>20087664

>>20087508
My worry is that you're only interested in an animal that you can give to the guardsmen so they have a riding mount. Which, to be honest, isn't really something I feel they need, especially if we want to keep people from making even more comparisons to Kriegers.

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 17:18:56 No.20087664 Report

Quoted By: >>20087752

>>20087593

I'm actually more interested in filling in evolutionary niches in Icelus. It could well be that the Icelian Salt Treader (I got an image of something like a silt strider or one of those little bugs that walk on water) is completely unsuitable to use outside Icelus. Maybe some poor nomads who can't afford cars or trains use them, or they're part of a traditional lifestyle, farmed for chitin or "milked" like horseshoe crabs. In any case, I like Icelus and want to see more wierd life there.

Jareddm Sun 29 Jul 2012 17:29:00 No.20087752 Report

Quoted By: >>20087860

>>20087664
That's certainly reasonable. The thing is, the nomads don't buy vehicles, they scavenge them, Mad Max style. The closest thing I could think of would be among the equatorial natives, where some sort of stilt strider creature can move across the mountains easily. That might work.

Cartography Servitor Sun 29 Jul 2012 17:35:49 No.20087828 Report

Quoted By:

new thread

>>20087822

Anonymous Sun 29 Jul 2012 17:38:29 No.20087860 Report

Quoted By:

>>20087752

I'm also thinking of snake- or eel-like creatures for riding. Similar to the Hammerpede in Prometheus, only larger. I think sandworms are played out, but something eel-like, pale and slimy would be a little more original.

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