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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 03:23:08 2012 No.19510257 View View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>19510292 >>19510301 >>19512057 >>19512123

What do you think of Star Wars as a science fiction/fantasy setting /tg/?

I've recently played SWtOR II: The Sith Lords for the first time and it blew my fucking mind. That game has a philosophical depth of the like I hadn't seen since Planescape: Torment. Could anyone familiar with the SW games and novels introduce me more things like that in the Expanded Universe?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:25:57 No.19510279 Report

Quoted By:

It would have been better if Star Wars wasn't so inherently dualistic.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:27:36 No.19510292 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510257

Generally speaking, the majority of elements of the Expanded Universe suck donkey balls.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:28:47 No.19510301 Report

Quoted By: >>19510320 >>19510408 >>19512008 >>19512025 >>19512343

>>19510257

By no means I am an expert in the EU story stuff, but the general impression I get is the vast majority of Star Wars fiction is pulp action schlock with no real depth to it at all.

If anything, the SWTOR games are something of an anomaly; the vast majority of Star Wars writers aren't very good, it just so happens that Bioware (and Obsidian, in the case of SWTOR II) had a very talented writing staff.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:29:33 No.19510306 Report

Quoted By: >>19510408

Knights of the Old Republic 1& II, and the Clone Wars miniseries are pretty much the high point of the Star Wars expanded universe.

While the novels are entertaining and have their fans, they get a little crazy. After the emporer dies and the Death Star explodes, he ends up coming back two or three more times as zombies and ghosts, with more planet destroying ships and hast to be beat all over again.

And there's Thrawn, who is a genius alien commander who takes charge of the remnant Imperial fleet and almost overthrows the newly formed Rebel founded Republic.

Then there's the aliens from another Galaxy who use biotech and launch a massive invasion that just fucks so many characters over.

And the kids... It's like later seasons of DBZ. Everyone has a kid, and the kids look like, act like, and are named after the main characters. Al of them are jedi. They get in all kinds of crazy hijinks.

It's just... Meh.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:29:56 No.19510310 Report

Quoted By: >>19510355

Did you use the restoration patch for KOTOR 2?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:30:39 No.19510320 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510301
You need to read all books that contain or are related to, one Grand Admiral Thrawn.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:31:42 No.19510329 Report

Quoted By:

>That game has a philosophical depth of the like I hadn't seen since Planescape

That's Obsidian wizardry for you. Star Wars itself never went beyond the silly "good and evil" dichotomy.

Some novels are worth it. Look into the Darth Bane series. They tell about the Order of the Sith lords and the Rule of Two were formed.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:33:56 No.19510355 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510310

I doing my second play-through with the unofficial patch. I'm afraid I haven't seen the difference yet.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:39:52 No.19510408 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510301
>>19510306

>>19510301

Yes I also have the impression that I've already seen the best there is, I'm just so amazed that I feel I have to know if there's anything more like it.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:56:25 No.19510579 Report

Quoted By: >>19511203 >>19511584

In part, Kreia was supposed to be aspects of Ravel that I didn’t have time for in Planescape: Torment. Also, as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes that.

Her one redeeming feature is that for a (former) Sith Lord, she loves the player and what he/she represents. She sees in the player a chance to turn away from predestination and destroy that which binds all things, giving the galaxy back its freedom.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 03:58:53 No.19510612 Report

Quoted By: >>19511311

Space fantasy should be reviled wherever it rears its grotesque head.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 04:46:17 No.19511203 Report

Quoted By: >>19511213 >>19511258 >>19511320 >>19512164 >>19512182

>>19510579
Viewing the force as a parasitic thing that directs life for its own goals was definitely new, and it pissed Lucas right the fuck off.

I liked the idea though. I'd pay $59.99 for a KOTOR 2 that was fixed up, finished, and done in modern graphics.

Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK Sun 17 Jun 2012 04:47:26 No.19511213 Report

Quoted By: >>19511258 >>19511320

>>19511203

First thing Lucas did upon hearing of it was make it non-canon, and produce the Clone Wars series in retaliation.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 04:50:51 No.19511258 Report

Quoted By: >>19511295

>>19511213
>>19511203

People keep saying that Kotor 2 is not canon anymore, but I can't find any source on that.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 04:54:33 No.19511295 Report

Quoted By:

>>19511258
It's only not canon if you listen to Lucas. And fuck him with a rusty knife. He has the moral depth of a 2 year old.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 04:56:38 No.19511311 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510612
>SCI FI NEEDS TO BE HARD, AS HARD AS MY PENIS IS FOR HARD SCI FI!

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 04:57:25 No.19511320 Report

Quoted By: >>19511924 >>19511973

>>19511203
>>19511213
/v/ here. Lucas and Bioware effectively retconned Kreia into being driven mad by crystals and Revan is now a weak HURRDURR IM EVIL pawn of the Sith Emperor and no longer the enigmatic general who did things for the greater good of the Republic.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 05:22:10 No.19511584 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510579
Oh, Chris, have my writer babies.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 05:57:48 No.19511924 Report

Quoted By: >>19511993

>>19511320
TOR is garbage, and soon it will be nothing. It's already going F2P in under half a year of its release. It is a colossal failure that might break EA.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:01:39 No.19511973 Report

Quoted By: >>19511998

>>19511320
Wait, what? When did they do this? This is dumb. If its from the comics, it's less canon than the video games.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:03:45 No.19511993 Report

Quoted By:

>>19511924
EA stocks price has been dropping hard since it came out. It's at like 12 dollars.

Anyway KOTOR 2 was good because it was written as a fuck you against star wars.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:04:08 No.19511998 Report

Quoted By: >>19512012 >>19512091

>>19511973
It's the plot of The Old Republic.

The result of George "I can't accept anything less than black and white morality" Lucas sticking his fat fingers into things.

He's a horrible influence. The only reason the original trilogy went over so well is that he had a crew of people calling him on his bullshit. But he got so famous for it, that people were afraid to call him out on it and he's been ruining the series ever since.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:05:48 No.19512008 Report

Quoted By: >>19512091

>>19510301
Somebody hasn't read Shatterpoint.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:06:27 No.19512012 Report

Quoted By:

>>19511998
To be reasonable, the whole point of Star Wars is that its supposed to be like the old sci-fi serials of the 30s, and the black and white morality is one of the key parts of the story. It's been there ever since his first drafts. We might not like it or agree with it, but that's how it is.

I always liked Kreia's view on the Force though, that it's an insidious force playing with the sentients of the galaxy. Jolee's and Vergere's interpretations are also pretty reasonable.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:07:38 No.19512025 Report

Quoted By: >>19512033 >>19512091

>>19510301
You should read Destiny's Way.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:08:30 No.19512033 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512025
Uh, scratch that, I meant you should read Traitor. DW is okay, but its pretty standard fare compared to Traitor.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:11:41 No.19512057 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510257

Did you play the first SWKOTOR? I can't decide which one I like better.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:15:35 No.19512091 Report

Quoted By: >>19512120

>>19511998
Sadly, it's not just George.
The more complex approach to the concepts of "dark side" and "light side" that was being set up towards the end of NJO (particularly in Traitor) pissed off several writers who got together and made the "Legacy of the Force" books (not to be confused with the "Legacy" comics which are pretty cool) just as a "fuck you" to torpedo the ideas.
>>19512008
>>19512025
>Stovermind
Easily my two favorite Star Wars books because 1: they go deep into the philosophical issues of The Force and 2: Matthew Woodring Stover writes great violence.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:18:38 No.19512120 Report

Quoted By: >>19512148 >>19516711

>>19512091
Yeah, it looked like Legacy was all about upending the stuff from NJO, especially anything that implied that the dark side came from individuals instead of an actual dark side. I would've loved it if they'd left it ambiguous and unresolved as they dealt with Aboleth et al, and made Daala less of a bitch. Still, Mandalorians almost redeemed it.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:18:59 No.19512123 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510257
Grand Admiral Thrawn Trilogy are the best books I've seen in the EU

Starts with Heir to the Empire, it is very good and Thrawn is probably the single best villain in Star Wars, and is most certainly up there if not

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:22:19 No.19512148 Report

Quoted By: >>19516711

>>19512120
>Still, Mandalorians almost redeemed it.
Sucks that we're not getting any more Republic OPERATO- er, I mean, Commando, books because of how badly Clone Wars fucked up the Mandos.
Come on guys, at least give us another game then, RepCom is EASILY the best (Non-KotOR) Star Wars game since Jedi Knight, and it has yet to get a sequel.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:23:59 No.19512164 Report

Quoted By: >>19512188

>>19511203
that's a shame, particularly considering the overriding Sith instinct being the pursuit of true freedom. The idea that even in the pursuit of that freedom you could become a slave to the very tool which you used to achieve your freedom is so very compelling, and makes the Sith far more awe-inspiring.

Though, I suppose glorifying the Sith is hardly the objective of Lucas' vision of the canon (which he's viewing in 3 dimensions now, apparently)

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:26:13 No.19512181 Report

Quoted By: >>19512196 >>19512500

When 90% of alien races are 'humans with weird feature' you have a shit sci fi setting.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:26:21 No.19512182 Report

Quoted By:

>>19511203
Doesn't it, though? The Sith on the one side are dominated by the Dark Side, like Aboleth, while the Jedi are motivated and led by the Light.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:27:03 No.19512188 Report

Quoted By: >>19512216 >>19512442

>>19512164
>(which he's viewing in 3 dimensions now, apparently
I didn't go to see it in 3d, I'm NOT going to go see the original trilogy in 3d, and I'm not going to pirate it either. Fuck 3d, it's a stupid fucking gimmick and everybody knows it. I already got my '06 DVDs, the only way George is getting my money again is if he releases the theatrical cuts of the original trilogy on Blu-Ray.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:27:54 No.19512196 Report

Quoted By: >>19512223 >>19512228

>>19512181
You mean, Star Trek? Warhammer 40K? Buck Rogers?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:30:10 No.19512216 Report

Quoted By: >>19512234

>>19512188
I saw Phantom Menace in 3d and it was pretty cool.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:31:21 No.19512223 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512196
Or Star Wars, Babylon 5, and virtually anything else filmed before CGI got really ridiculously cheap.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:31:47 No.19512228 Report

Quoted By: >>19512245 >>19512534

>>19512196
Yes.
Star Trek's setting is shit, it's the hook that's good.
Warhammer's setting is shit, in terms of fiction. You break it down and it falls apart like dust. It's great for a wargame. And yes, some of the novels are good, but they ignore the pretty glaring loopholes in the world.
Buck Rogers? I honestly couldn't attack it if I wanted to. But yeah if it has human with weird appendage, it's on that list.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:32:46 No.19512234 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512216
Okay, I might have to see it somewhere for the fight scene in the generator room because FUCK YEAH RAY PARK AND LIAM NEESON BEATIN' THE SHIT OUT OF EACH OTHER!

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:34:20 No.19512245 Report

Quoted By: >>19512328

>>19512228
Let's go with, "name three 'good' settings then."

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:37:21 No.19512273 Report

Quoted By: >>19512288 >>19512353

The New Jedi Order is one of the best Expanded Universe novel series in my opinion. Its about a extragalactic biotechnological race called the Yuuzhan Vong that are ruthless killers with a masochistic theme. Be warned though the series is very grimdark and is very diffrent from other EU works and fans either hate it or love it for this reason.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:39:02 No.19512288 Report

Quoted By: >>19512456

>>19512273
Is it weird that the Yuuzhan Vong remind me of the Dark Eldar?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:42:14 No.19512321 Report

Quoted By:

>That game has a philosophical depth

Ha ha

No.

The game takes pains to point out inconsistencies in the SWU, but don't confuse that for any philosophical musings.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:43:23 No.19512328 Report

Quoted By: >>19512353

>>19512245
Sci fi or fantasy?

Sci fi, since the thread's all about it:
Starfishers
The Cthulhu Mythos
whatever Charles Stross's sci-fi setting is called
Dune
And for free:
Gene Wolfe's Solar Cycle setting.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:44:46 No.19512343 Report

Quoted By:

>>19510301
>KotOR1
>Good writing

Pick one.

There are some silly uses of OT lines and Jolee Bindo has good elements, but other than that, the writing (and everything else) are shit.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:45:00 No.19512348 Report

Quoted By:

That is Obsidian writing for you.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:45:30 No.19512353 Report

Quoted By: >>19512413

>>19512273
NJO and Tales of the Jedi are my favorite time periods to run Star Wars RPGs in. Legacy (the comics set like a century after Jedi, not the novels) brings up third, because there's just not enough detail on how tech has advanced and the like to do it justice.
>>19512328
Dune has no aliens unless you count Navigators.
And oh look, it's all stuff from a written medium, where you can make your aliens as weird as you want rather than "well shit, we can't actually DO that for film". It's called "limitations of the medium" dude.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:51:23 No.19512402 Report

Quoted By:

I agree, OP. I didn't give the setting a second glance until KotOR II.

But I think what I liked best about the KotOR games is how they made it their own canvas. So do the same!

For instance, I'm contemplating running a Star Wars game with a wuxia feel and a lot of Chinese and Southeast Asian cultural-thematic elements, making more blatant the Taoist and Buddhist analogues in Force philosophy, for instance. Why not? Come up with something cool you want to do and go nuts with it.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:52:28 No.19512413 Report

Quoted By: >>19512428

>>19512353
No aliens is fine for a sci-fi setting. It's even pretty logical, considering the lack of evidence regarding alien life. But if you are going to have alien life out there, most of it should not be 'human with weird feature.'
No matter the medium.
Besides, Star Wars had no problem with Jabba the Hut, and 40k has squigs and tyranid. They made aliens like they are due to lack of imagination, not lack of proper effects for the media.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:54:26 No.19512428 Report

Quoted By: >>19512452

>>19512413
>Star Wars had no problem with Jabba the Hut, and 40k has squigs and tyranid
Squigs and Tyranids have yet to appear in anything that's actually FILMED, and Jabba was HUGELY complex for the time. The puppet broke repeatedly while they were filming.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:55:55 No.19512442 Report

Quoted By: >>19512479 >>19512530

>>19512188
>Fuck 3d, it's a stupid fucking gimmick
I only conditionally agree on this. A movie that's been properly filmed in 3D, like Avatar, Coraline, or Prometheus looks great. It's the fucking pointless post-production 3D where it's obviously been filmed for 2D viewing that's a gimmick to get us to spend more.

And I just watched through the movies again, and could totally imagine the average RP group doing everything in the Death Star escape sequence.
GM"As you get to the top of the ramp past the doorway, it suddenly ends into a huge chasm"
P1"I close the door and shoot the control to jam it"
P2"Find the controls to extend the bridge!"
GM"Yeah, those were in that panel too"
P1"Shit, wait, stormtrooper belts have a grappling hook, right? Is there something I can hook it on to swing over?"
GM"yes, there's some equipment higher up that would work, roll a thrown weapon to see if you can hook it"

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:57:15 No.19512452 Report

Quoted By: >>19512500

>>19512428
Space marines haven't been filmed in anything either.

And Luke got his face disfigured.

You're nitpicking, you're not giving any support to the argument that these are good series'. You're just trying to justify their lack of creativity. Don't bother replying unless you have something more important to say.

And please keep in mind that you have no need to respond. Just as you aren't going to change your opinion about these settings, I'm not gonna change mine.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 06:57:54 No.19512456 Report

Quoted By: >>19512514

>>19512288
Dark Eldar have to be evil bastards to keep Slaanesh from eating their souls while not all Vong are evil. The mutant Vong slave caste are actually pretty cool dudes and come to worship the Jedi as saviors that will free them from slavery. The masochism is quite similar though.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:02:43 No.19512479 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512442
>Avatar
Decent effects, almost good fight scenes (no matter how fast they're going those arrows wouldn't do shit against a bit of Lexan, much less whatever space-age bullshitium the mech cockpits are made of) but was a shitty ripoff of Dances With Wolves, and the 3d still didn't wow me.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:12:25 No.19512500 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512452
>Space marines haven't been filmed in anything either.
Bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Liberation
And by the way, my whole POINT is that your argument in >>19512181 is fallacious.
You just want a comfortable number to hide behind so you can claim "If it does x it's shit" rather than the honest "I don't like it if it does x" because you're a self-absorbed idiot.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:14:12 No.19512510 Report

Quoted By:

The sad thing about KOTOR 2 is although the restoration patches have restored everything that can be restored the game will never be complete. Obsidian was planning to add many more things before being forced into a Christmas release and in the games files are bits of cool shit that can't be put into the larger puzzle and restored. LucasArts has refused to give Obsidian permission to release a content patch for some reason. If they were to make a content patch after all these years or remake the game I would pay good money.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:15:11 No.19512514 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512456
I'm well aware of the complexities of the Yuuzhan Vong (why do you think I'm using the long form rather than the dismissive and disrespectful "vong") I meant aesthetically, and I should have been clearer on that.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:19:24 No.19512530 Report

Quoted By: >>19513554

>>19512442
Well have I got a gift for you!
http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html
They're doing all six movies, and they're up to Luke and Ben entering Mos Eisley.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:20:29 No.19512534 Report

Quoted By: >>19512676 >>19512712

>>19512228
40K's setting is still better than Star Wars.
A setting where everyone is an asshole is a lot more realistic than one where assholes and non-assholes are clearly defined. That is laughable detached from real life and immensely shallow. The realistic depiction of actual people and the resistance of moralfaggotry is why the franchise is so popular.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:40:05 No.19512676 Report

Quoted By: >>19512690

>>19512534
>40k
>realistic (in any way, whatsoever)
Pick one.

I'm not siding with one over the other, but your argument is utter bollocks.

As for star wars, the EU that came out up to about '97-'98 was (mostly) pretty good. Then the prequels came out, Lucas took more control again, and the whole thing's gone to shit, with everything revolving around Jedi. Fuck you Lucas! Playing Rebel scum>Jedi wankers any day of the week.
Still, Star Wars 1313 looks (tentatively) hopeful at getting back to what SW should actually be about.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:41:56 No.19512690 Report

Quoted By: >>19512712

>>19512676

he's kinda right though
The Imperium is a far more realistic depiction of a galaxy spanning government than the Republic

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:46:19 No.19512712 Report

Quoted By: >>19512729

>>19512534
>A setting where everyone is an asshole is a lot more realistic than one where assholes and non-assholes are clearly defined. That is laughable detached from real life and immensely shallow. The realistic depiction of actual people and the resistance of moralfaggotry is why the franchise is so popular.
>One-dimensional grimdark is so much better than two-dimensional noblebright because it's so EDGY and MATURE and that means that because I like it then I'M MATURE!
ftfy 40kid
Yes, people are assholes, but that doesn't make "EVERYONE'S A HORRIBLE EVIL PUPPYKICKING MONSTER!" any more realistic than "EVERYONE'S EITHER A PARAGON OF JUSTICE OR A HORRIBLE SATURDAY MORNING CARTOON VILLAIN" which, by the way, is a MASSIVE strawmanning of the setting.
>>19512690
>The Imperium is a far more realistic depiction of a galaxy spanning government than the Republic
Well they're BOTH hilariously inept, one just knows how to make guns that aren't shit.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 07:48:09 No.19512729 Report

Quoted By: >>19512795

>>19512712
>but that doesn't make "EVERYONE'S A HORRIBLE EVIL PUPPYKICKING MONSTER!" any more realistic than "EVERYONE'S EITHER A PARAGON OF JUSTICE OR A HORRIBLE SATURDAY MORNING CARTOON VILLAIN"

Hey guess what, the former is real life, the latter is fiction. Also it's not a strawmanning if KOTOR 2 was written to address it.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:00:03 No.19512795 Report

Quoted By: >>19512818 >>19512826

>>19512729
So Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Theresa, and Mr. Rogers are evil?
"Grimdark" is just as detached from reality as anything else.
And yes, it is a strawmanning. Read the Darth Bane books, read Traitor, read Shatterpoint, read the Thrawn Trilogy. All of them don't fall into it. The problem lies purely with THE FORCE, not the whole setting. Han Solo's first scene is blowing a man away under the table, he was a drug smuggler (seriously hard shit, Glitterstim will fuck you up and is addictive as hell). Gilad Pellaeon is a perfectly decent human being who also happens to wind up leader of the Imperial Remnant. Talon Karrde is an arms dealer and a protagonist. Corran Horn kills numerous innocents while infiltrating a group of pirates to get his wife back.
All those people? Protagonists.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:05:51 No.19512818 Report

Quoted By: >>19512841

>>19512795
>Mother Theresa
>not evil

I got news for you, I'm afraid.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:07:02 No.19512826 Report

Quoted By: >>19512833 >>19512841

>>19512795
>Mother Theresa

Boy have I got news for you.
The other two could easily be exposed for nothing more than self-righteous frauds with ulterior motives or over-blown paragons of incredibly shallow and unrealistic moral values, especially Rogers.
Try again.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:07:56 No.19512833 Report

Quoted By: >>19512851 >>19512882

>>19512826
God I remember what it was like to be fourteen.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:09:14 No.19512841 Report

Quoted By: >>19512856 >>19512863

>>19512818
>>19512826

>Hey, I watched that episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit that said that Mother Theresa was totally evil! I'm in the know, maaaaaan!

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:10:31 No.19512851 Report

Quoted By: >>19512880 >>19512882 >>19513517 >>19516224 >>19516365 >>19516481 >>19516929

>>19512833

Nope.

>Having morals or being subject to morality in any way, shape or form.

>Following some non-written rules you were taught as a kid, following society's will intead of yours

>Being a slave, "hurr i habe 2 feels bad if i do dis i was tol its wrongz"

>Implying Altruism isn't the cancer of the century

>in before durr hurr hurr edgy

Nope.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:11:11 No.19512856 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512841
there's more documentation of it that Penn and Teller though

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:12:14 No.19512863 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512841
Never seen the episode, and I already knew this.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:16:05 No.19512880 Report

Quoted By: >>19512895

>>19512851
I remember when I was fourteen...Then I grew up, made real friends, and went halfway around the world.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:16:38 No.19512882 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512833
>>19512851
I feels like I just read this shitty argument.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:18:38 No.19512895 Report

Quoted By: >>19512900 >>19512902

>>19512880
>in before durr hurr hurr edgy
>you walk right into it

Are you that braindead?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:19:57 No.19512900 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512895
saying "inb4" doesn't make it untrue.
Seriously, I'm sure that your problems will get better once you grow up and stop being an "I hate the world ebbrywun's eebil" faggot.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:20:18 No.19512902 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512895
>Hey, tell me why I'm wrong WITHOUT TELLING ME YOU'RE WRONG
>You're wrong because...
>LOL NOPE
0/10

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 08:24:06 No.19512925 Report

Quoted By:

Hey. Hey faggots. Here's a tip: stop responding to trolls.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 10:04:11 No.19513517 Report

Quoted By: >>19516449

>>19512851
>Rules you were taught as kids, following them makes you a slave
>Rules like fairness, moral plurality, honoring contracts and promises
>Rules that keep society functioning
>YOU CAN'T MAKE ME WEAR SEATBELT THAT'S COMMUNISM
>HURR DURR I'M FREE

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 10:09:55 No.19513554 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512530
I'd forgotten that existed after I stopped reading for a while, thanks!

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 16:53:07 No.19516224 Report

Quoted By: >>19516449

>>19512851
>Implying Altruism isn't the cancer of the century

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 16:57:05 No.19516273 Report

Quoted By: >>19517506

Star Wars...

I can't think of a more bland setting.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:03:30 No.19516365 Report

Quoted By:

>>19512851
Why are EVERY KOTOR 2 fan I have encountered on the internet just like this?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:04:01 No.19516372 Report

Quoted By:

>following society's will intead of yours

Are you implying that society's will is always different than an individual's will?

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:10:28 No.19516449 Report

Quoted By: >>19516481 >>19516665 >>19516929

>>19513517
>>19516224

>Altruism
>Not cancer

>Giving up first world resources to filthy immigrants
>Allowing 3rd world savages in civilized countries and giving them free healthcare and money because "Omg they poor they need the foods ;_; u have no hearts!11"

>I could go on, the altruism is detrimental in many ways
>inb4 go back to /pol/ hurr

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:13:16 No.19516481 Report

Quoted By: >>19516535 >>19516540

>>19512851
>>19516449

Way to misunderstand what Kreia said, you fucking Randroid

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:17:08 No.19516535 Report

Quoted By: >>19516540

>>19516481

This. I loved KotOR II but it had a lot more going on than Randian teenage brooding, and Kreia especially was dreaming bigger than that.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:17:40 No.19516540 Report

Quoted By: >>19516675

>>19516481
>>19516535
Try to disprove the argument then. Should be simple.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:24:16 No.19516630 Report

Quoted By: >>19517022

>ITT people misunderstand KOTOR II

Kreia was wrong, objectively wrong. Like all Sith her delusions of grandeur made her think she knew more about what she was talking about than she actually did. Her philosophy might be compelling in a universe NOT run by a dualistic energy field but unfortunately its not. For Force Sensitives the Dark Side is literally a drug, taking little hits by being a jackass or callous every now and then is NOT OKAY. Just like you can't take "one or two shots of cocaine every now and then" and not hope to end up a hopeless addict

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:27:53 No.19516665 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516449
>Altruism is detrimental because it involves giving up my excess resources to people who suffer to level the playing field.
>I have a greater right to everything I have because I was born with it and they were not.
>Ergo, everyone who isn't born with the means to sustain themselves should be allowed to languish and die.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:28:33 No.19516675 Report

Quoted By: >>19516709 >>19516773 >>19516843

>>19516540

Kriea wasn't against the "light side" or "dark side". She favored altruism when it was sensible and selfishness when it was sensible.

She wanted to destroy the force (both light, dark, and gray) because the force was fate. It dictated when you were born, what you did, and when you died and assigned arbitrary values to your actions while it itself controlled them.

She wanted to get rid of that. She wanted people to do what they'll do and not have to worry about being manipulated by some higher force that judged them.

She wanted to "kill god", which in the KOTOR II universe, is not necessarily a being of benevolence that your parents told you to obey, but a force of control whose interpreters/enforcers are various orders of hooded mystics wielding laser swords.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:32:01 No.19516709 Report

Quoted By: >>19516741

>>19516675
Isn't The Force being a sentient and willful entity only from the prequels? Why bother even acknowledging it?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:32:14 No.19516711 Report

Quoted By: >>19516719 >>19516746

>>19512120
>>19512148
I have never and most likely will never forgive LucasCorp for firing Karen Traviss and preventing her from completing the Republic/Imperial Commando books and bringing the Mandalorians back to the level of notoriety and awesomeness that the fans deserved. I will never forgive them for taking all that work and shitting all over it with the Clone Wars.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:33:01 No.19516719 Report

Quoted By: >>19516761

>>19516711
But the fans hated Traviss.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:35:07 No.19516741 Report

Quoted By: >>19516754

>>19516709

No. Kriea explains that the force is not only willful, but that it manipulates people to its ends. The result is stuff like Jedi/Sith wars. She hates that and hates the force.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:35:31 No.19516746 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516711
Traviss was awful

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:36:46 No.19516754 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516741
That doesn't answer my question. I recall all that shit originating from Episode 1 with the 'will of the Force' constantly being cited.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:37:21 No.19516761 Report

Quoted By: >>19516824

>>19516719
A certain subset did, but book sales spoke otherwise. Personally (and obviously by my earlier post), I adored the series, as well as the books she wrote for the Post-Trilogy Post-Vong series, which frankly was lackluster as many other have said. I think she was one of the best authors in the EU, right along with Drew Karpyshn and Zahn (hallowed be his name).

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:37:58 No.19516765 Report

Quoted By: >>19516781 >>19516797 >>19516843

I just want to check that /tg/ doesn't have some revelationary evidence or viewpoint to debunk my conclusion.

If I run a Star Wars RPG game set in the Old Republic setting, I am completely justified in ignoring ToR and everything it established in the expanded universe, and making up my own history, regardless of the fact atleast two of my players like ToR... Right?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:38:55 No.19516773 Report

Quoted By: >>19516843 >>19516892

>>19516675
The thing is that KOTOR 2 fags use this scenario as an allegory for opposing morality and striving to be as amoral as possible.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:39:42 No.19516781 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516765
Just set it before anything from TOR comes into play

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:41:23 No.19516797 Report

Quoted By: >>19516812 >>19516837 >>19516869

>>19516765
KOTOR era is overrated

Do a Great Sith War game, Exar Kun makes a better villain than Raven, The Triumvirate, and Vitiate combined

Or be balls to the walls awesome and run the game during the Great Hyperspace War

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:42:54 No.19516812 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516797
Both of those fall into the Old Republic era

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:43:44 No.19516824 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516761

>if it sells well, it must be good

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:44:59 No.19516836 Report

Quoted By:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_iSQ65ZDAE

They tired to warn us...but we didn't listen.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:45:04 No.19516837 Report

Quoted By: >>19516874

>>19516797
Who's Raven?

19516535 Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:45:55 No.19516843 Report

Quoted By: >>19516864

>>19516675

This. Kreia rejected both Sith and Jedi philosophy and wanted to change the game, and in her eyes, free everybody by eliminating the Force.

>>19516765

I in fact highly recommend it. As a GM, canon makes a good servant but a poor master.

>>19516773

As a KotOR II fag myself this disappoints me. I didn't know this. I hate the Internet sometimes.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:47:19 No.19516864 Report

Quoted By: >>19516879 >>19516907

>>19516843
>I didn't know this.

I do not believe you. I have never encountered a KOTOR 2 fan who was not a drooling Randroid harping on about every and any moral-centric character in fiction.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:47:32 No.19516869 Report

Quoted By: >>19516897 >>19516922

>>19516797
It's been at least a couple of years since I played KotOR/2 (I need to correct this), but it's all starting to come back.

What reading should I do for the Great Sith War or Hyperspace Wars? I've read a fair number of Star Wars comics (mostly in the Yuuzhan Vong eras and beyond), but they're hard as ass to find usually.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:48:04 No.19516874 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516837

...Raven Symone? Someone shoop her as a Sith

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:48:14 No.19516879 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516864

0/10

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:49:20 No.19516892 Report

Quoted By: >>19516929

>>19516773
They tend to miss the fact that she criticizes altruism because it's actually harmful. She criticizes it when it makes someone weaker because they aren't facing their own problems. Or when it's short sighted (Nar-Shadda beggars). She believes in a sort of forced Darwinism; everyone struggles, and either gets better for it, or dies trying. A bit heartless, but more valid sometimes than nihilism and sadism or trying to be space jesus because it makes you feel good (and gives xp). Funny enough, the xp system makes the fact that you steal their challenges a reality in game terms.

Though, the game rarely gave you options for agreeing with her in dialogue. You couldn't make people solve their own problems, and the choices sadly boiled down to light, dark, neutral, and sometimes superlight and superdark.

As an aside, anyone else disappointed that you couldn't actually kill the force in Kotor 2 or destroy the Wall of the Faithless? Both games got my justice flowing, and I was so eager to dispense it, then boiled down to a boss fight against something that wasn't my goal in the first place.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:49:31 No.19516897 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516869
Knights of the Old Republic was the name of a huge comic series encompassing everything from the Great Hyperspace War to the Jedi Civil War. It's easy to find these days.
Also be aware that these comics actually portrayed the Old Republic as OLD, everything looks ancient instead of copying the OT style.

19516535 Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:50:16 No.19516907 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516864

...I played light side and am left wing in real life? I really couldn't be farther from a Randroid. Sorry dude. It might help that I was already something like 21 when I played it (mostly too poor to keep up with new systems so I'm a few years behind; might get a 360 as a Master's degree present to myself). Well past the teenage rebellion phase.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:51:28 No.19516922 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516869
Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War were both done mostly in comic series by Dark Horse in the dark olden times of late 90s early 2000s. They might be really hard to find. I recommend Wookiepedia, its better than nothing

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:52:06 No.19516929 Report

Quoted By: >>19516976 >>19516981

>>19516892

So I assume you believe >>19512851 and >>19516449 are right on the money?

As I said, typical KOTOR 2 fag.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:56:23 No.19516976 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516929
I'm sorry, but I think I shouldn't have said 'because' in the first sentence, and I'm not sure if you kept reading. To be fair, I played light side because it was the best option presented to me. I was allowed to either help, ignore, or kill people in my path, as the dialogue allows. There was no option to empower them to solve their own problems (simpler ones, not like killing mercenaries or mandalorians).

On the off chance that you aren't deliberate, I'll say that I disagree absolutely with the guy you linked, and I'd do the right thing regardless of the consequences to myself. And if that meant not paying off someones gambling debt and helping them earn the money fairly, so be it. If it meant teaching a town how to fight instead of killing all of their enemies and allowing the root problem, so be it. If they can't kill mandalorians, well, then I'll fucking kill the mandalorians.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 17:56:51 No.19516981 Report

Quoted By:

>>19516929

>assuming
>calling people fag

go away child

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:00:52 No.19517022 Report

Quoted By: >>19517091

>>19516630

> Just like you can't take "one or two shots of cocaine every now and then" and not hope to end up a hopeless addict

Uh, I've got some news for you...

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:07:28 No.19517086 Report

Quoted By:

I liked KOTORII, but I really disliked how it went out of it's way to try and be deep and meaningful.

I like Star Wars because of the pulp sci-fi Space Opera simplicity it has, if I want deep meanings I have many other things to choose from.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:07:46 No.19517091 Report

Quoted By: >>19517129

>>19517022
This.

If we continue to dwell on the expanded universe, then I'd note that Luke Skywalker actually taught the importance of finding the correct balance between the light and dark sides of the force at his Jedi Academy, emphasising that focussing too strongly on either end of the spectrum was limiting.

Granted, this isn't particularly well represented in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, where you get positive messages if you have mostly light-side powers, and negative messages if you have mostly dark-side powers (and the verbal equivalent of a gentle pat on the back if you have them perfectly balanced), but the point it still touched on.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:13:01 No.19517129 Report

Quoted By:

>>19517091
Because Jedi Academy is set after the point where they realize trying to strike a balance was a mistake.

Luke's Jedi Order went through three main phases; a replica of the original Jedi order, an attempt to strike a balance between light and dark, and back to the original Jedi way with most of the pointless dogma removed.

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:17:46 No.19517171 Report

Quoted By: >>19517181 >>19517192 >>19517403

>Put a gray character in a black and white setting (Star Wars)
>So deep, brilliant, amazing

>Put a white character in a black and gray setting (40K)
>OMG FUCK DIS MORALFAG SHIT GET OUT FAG I'M GONNA CALL NIETZSCHE ON YOUR ASS FAGGOT

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:19:04 No.19517181 Report

Quoted By:

>>19517171

Truth

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Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:20:15 No.19517192 Report

Quoted By:

>>19517171
>implying the moralfag marines like Salamanders aren't popular based largely on them being good guys in 40K

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:45:39 No.19517403 Report

Quoted By: >>19517416

>>19517171

White characters in 40k are unbelieveable.Grey characters never are.End of story.

The concept of good and evil is very childish to begin with anyways.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:47:01 No.19517416 Report

Quoted By: >>19517454

>>19517403
Bold faced hypocrisy. You're just booty busted about moralfags in any and every setting and are probably the same troglodyte whining about altruism. Prove me wrong.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:51:27 No.19517454 Report

Quoted By: >>19517473

>>19517416

Maybe you start explaining me how this is hypocrisy first.

But no , I'm not the same guy and I got bored reading your uneducated conversation pretty quick.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:55:01 No.19517473 Report

Quoted By: >>19517492 >>19520787

>>19517454
>a gray character who criticizes a black and white setting is objectively good and deep, what an interesting way to challenge this setting!
>a good character in a shit world is objectively terrible and shallow because fuck da moralfag scum, shallow plebeians!

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:57:24 No.19517492 Report

Quoted By: >>19520787

>>19517473

I didn't use any of those words , maybe you try again.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 18:59:30 No.19517506 Report

Quoted By: >>19517521 >>19517549

>>19516273
What about a setting where everyone works 9-5 in a crucible office and the only foods are tofu and vanilla ice cream?

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 19:01:18 No.19517521 Report

Quoted By:

>>19517506
*cucible

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 19:03:46 No.19517549 Report

Quoted By: >>19517575 >>19517631

>>19517506
Vanilla ice cream is the most delicious of ice creams.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 19:06:05 No.19517575 Report

Quoted By: >>19517602

>>19517549

If it were any other color than white, it wouldn't be as beautiful

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 19:09:04 No.19517602 Report

Quoted By:

>>19517575
It's not beautiful.
It's delicious.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 19:12:16 No.19517631 Report

Quoted By:

>>19517549
I prefer chocolate chip cookie dough.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 23:25:20 No.19520787 Report

Quoted By: >>19520907

>>19517492
>>19517473
I just have to say this:

Plebians is one of my favorite words.

Anonymous Sun 17 Jun 2012 23:35:00 No.19520907 Report

Quoted By:

>>19520787
It's PLEBEIAN, you chucklefuck.

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